Text of letter from Cardinal Medina Est vez rejecting ICEL translations

http://www.webelieve.cc/html/medinalet.htm ^ | 16 March 2002 | Jorge A. Car. Medina Estévez

[narses]

Let me ask it a different way, under what circumstances (in your opinion) may I criticize my Bishop or our Pope or the Curia or Bishop's Conference?

[Catholicguy]

Bl John XXIII's first encyclical, Ad Petri cathedram, nos. 71 and 72, says: "71. The Catholic Church, of course, leaves many questions open to the discussion of theologians. She does this to the extent that matters are not absolutely certain. Far from jeopardizing the Church's unity, controversies, as a noted English author, John Henry Cardinal Newman, has remarked, can actually pave the way for its attainment. For discussion can lead to fuller and deeper understanding of religious truths; when one idea strikes against another, there may be a spark. (25)

"72. But the common saying, expressed in various ways and attributed to various authors, must be recalled with approval: in essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity."

Mike, that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the soi disant "Trads" as they destroy Unity. They are NOT in Union with the Pope. They refuse to be obedient. They do NOT accept one or more Documents of an Ecumenical Council, so , these words do NOT apply to soi disant "Trads."

To think it does apply, try and imagine Newman opposing Vatican One AFTER it had taken its decisions and those decisons/documents had been accepted by the Pope. It would never have happened and you and I know that.

These words cannot be used to excuse rejection of Divinely-constituted authority nor can they be used to countenance rejection of an Ecumenical Council or repeated attacks upon the normative Mass.

You know, some of these "Trads," the ones that signed the "We Resist you to the Face" proclamation (in reality it's an "I'm a Protestant" confession)actually believe it possible a future Ecumenical Council can decide that Vatican Two was not an Ecumenical Council and its decisions/documents/authority will be overturned. That shows NO understanding of Catholicism at all - yet, look at how many here are rushing to defend such "Trads" and tell others they must play the Rodney King Catholic to such anomie.

Do you think one Ecumenical Council can overturn a previous one?

[Domestic Church]

The Bishops are deserving of criticism in this country...too many haven't been aligned with the Pope and magisterial teachings and that was evident even in Canada on how they greeted him as few and far between were the ones to kiss his ring.

As for criticizing the Pope, we are obligated to defend and promote unity on dogma and doctrine and to treasure the Magisterial teachings, our Deposit of Faith.

It is only natural that some (especially those of us whose Grandparents were born in the 1860's) are boggled by events and elements such as the gathering at St.Francis of Assisi, the ICEL (not to mention the entire change to vernacular of the Mass, our highest prayer.) It takes about 200 years for the pendulum swing of any Council to settle...we have lived through the first left swing and the Church will now be entering more moderate times when the dust of the current scandal settles.

[Catholicguy]

Narses, as long as one is a self-described "Trad," anyone can criticise the Pope any damn time they desire as they obviously know so much more about John Paul II when it comes to Theology, Ecclesiology, Doctrine and Sanctity and his authority is restricted to only those times when he speaks Ex Cathedra and he must issue those Ex Cathedra pronouncements in precisely the form that "Trads" say he must; using certain words, phrases and he better damn well attach an "anathema" to each and every decison he takes or else the "Trads" can open fire.
I am surprised the Pope can even take a right decision absent the numinous and afflatic counseling of his opponents.

[narses]

Well thanks for the informative reply. /sarcasm off/

[Catholicguy]

Well thanks for the informative reply. /sarcasm off/

You're welcome.

Let me ask you a question. The Curia speaks in the Pope's name. When a disputed question/issue has been decided and the Pope directs a Curial Office to issue an opinion/document regarding said question/issue who gives you the liberty to criticise it?

When an Ecumenical Council (ALL are infallible, by their nature) has taken decisions and promulgated Doctrinal Documents with the approval of the Pope, who gives you liberty to oppose any single document of that council or the entire council?

When the Pope has taken decisions and issued Encyclicals, who gives you liberty to refuse to accept or reject them?

When a Universal catechism has been promulgated, who gives you the liberty to reject sections of it or attack certain entries?

In matters far less important, say the decision of a National government, men have been known to resign when the gov't they pledge fealty to takes a decision they cannot in conscience submit to.

I think the soi disant "trads" are spineless sissies. They want it both ways. They want both to proclaim they are Catholic - worse, they label themselves super-Catholics, "Trads" - and they want the Liberty to practice a protestant-catholicism; and they are no different than the "cafeteria catholics" they regularly excoriate in their pathetic rags except that they choose different doctrines to reject than do the liberal cafeteria catholics (protestants).

This magnificient Pope has shown the "Trads" heroic patience and STILL they attack him every single day.

Some even seek for ways in which they can attack, criticise and complain and be legitimate Catholics.

Imagine taking that approach to one you REALLY loved.Try that with your girlfriend or wife. "Honey, tell me in what way I can criticise you every single day and still remain in union with you?"

But, when it comes to the Pope, the Vicar of Christ, well, hell man, it is open season. Who the Hell does he think he is changing the language of the Liturgy? Who was the Lord and Saviour who died and made him Pope? Well, he may be the Pope that is alive, but 400 years ago so and so was Pope and he said...."

Give me a damn break...(Sarcasm only as necessary to make a point))

[narses]

Shall I NEVER criticize my wife then to try and stay in union? The fact is that my wife and I entered into the Sacrament before God intending our union to last until death. We rarely criticize each other, and when we do it is painful. Frankly though, it is critical that we feel free to do so, imho. As for your claim that "STILL they attack him every single day", I find that hard to believe. Many of my friends probably would fit your definition of "TRAD" and they do NOT daily attack the Holy Father. And when they do, it is often with pain similar to what I feel when my wife and I disagree. In other words in love and charity.

[narses]

"Do you think one Ecumenical Council can overturn a previous one?"

No. Nor have you ever heard me suggest that the problem is Vatican II.

[Mike Fieschko]

Do you think one Ecumenical Council can overturn a previous one?

No. I also happen to believe that Dignitatis humanae was an enormous help in liberating eastern Europe from the Communists.

I also happen to believe that my fellow parishioners, parish priest, bishop, president of the bishops' conference, apostolic nuncio all can make mistakes, and the elevation of someone to the papacy doesn't protect him from imprudence or making other sorts of mistakes.

Now, if I type out my views about the fellow Catholic, Pope, etc., I may be the jerk, especially if I express myself without balance and an attempt to understand.

Speaking for myself, I love a fight ... not a good one, but ones that are insanely suicidal in arrogance, disregard for limits or chance of success. I'm sure that I could take every decade of my life, beginning with my teens, and provide examples.

Is that a good rule of life? No. Is it a good rule by which to measure or judge others? Please.

Knowing myself in those ways, if I avoid being a jerk (as above), it's not because I'm weary or treasonous, but because it will poison my heart.

[Catholicguy]

Bud, if you treat your wife like you do the Pope, I will contact your State DHS if I learn were you live

[Catholicguy]

the percentage of "trads" who think it will happen is not insignificant. read their literature..it's all there

[Catholicguy]

Shall I NEVER criticize my wife then to try and stay in union? The fact is that my wife and I entered into the Sacrament before God intending our union to last until death. We rarely criticize each other, and when we do it is painful.

"Trads" do it regularly, with alacrity. Read their literature....If they DIDN'T atack the Pope, if they suddendly began to show loyalty, their subscriber list would vanish faster than a politician's promise

[Catholicguy]

My wife spanks all of our children. I can think of a few priests and Bishops that derserve a spanking (Actually I can think of a few priests that deserve the electric chair)

. I spanked our children, once, and very lightly at that. I never had to spank them again and they have grown to be wonderful Christians who have concern and compassion for others.

The one time I did spank each of them, I think it was more a case of me being frustrated than them doing something so severe they were endangering themselves.

As for electrocuting priests, I am against that...I think Capital punishment unnecessary and to imagine it being used against one who has received Holy Orders is particularly bizarre