Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
I'll be your first renter. Don't forget the FR discount. :-)
You're in Brownsville right? Harlinger is nice too. (especially the dogtrack) lol.
It works for me.
SD
How do we expect the Holy Spirit to come upon Mary without destroying her unless she is first made clean, a worthy receptacle for God to reside in?
Are you "divine" Dave? Does the HS dwell within you?
Again, a clean, sinless human being is not "divine." Do you understand that there is a difference, an unbridgeable gulf between being a created human and being a divine, uncreated god?
That aside, I was made clean upon my Baptism. That is what it is for, for removing sin and for giving the gift of the Holy Spirit. This was allowed because I was born after Jesus came to live on the earth, after He established His Church.
Mary, on the other hand, lived before Jesus came to the earth.
Without the benefit of Christian Baptism, she would have had no way of removing her sin prior to the Holy Ghost overshadowing her. So God cleansed her in a special way, so that she could be a dwelling place for the Lord.
SD
Nobody is making the argument that Jesus is a woman
Huh? Where did this come from?
Well, I said that Jesus' humanity came only from His mother. Having no biological human father, He would be "related" only to Mary.
You then pointed out that women don't have y chromosones, which would make an offspring of Mary by necessity a woman.
I pointed out that this is not a limitation that God could not overcome. Through some process, not ever to be understood while on earth, God took the genetic material of Mary and used it to create the male body which God then used to become Incarnate.
SD
This is going to sound harsh and it's going to come out wrong, but babies first and foremost are totally and completely selfsish. Their wants and needs come totally before anything else in their world. It might be said that they're totally immeresed in themselves which of course is the exact opposite of Godliness. Not that it's their fault, it's what sin did to the world. It's a great physical survival tool, but doesn't do anything spiritually.
Actually, I don't disagree with you.
If you read this earlier in the week, you will see that I do not believe a person has "sinned" unless they are competent of the idea of sin and free to choose their actions. In short, if the baby does not know he is doing wrong, does not even have the concept of right and wrong, then the baby is not guilty of any "sin."
So you describe a baby's actions as "selfish" and "willful" but I do not see how they can be "sinful."
Remember, the Fall was related to eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Until Adam and Eve were able to "know" what was right and what was wrong, there was no sin.
In our development as children, we relive this in microcosm.
sD
You. You brought it up.
What do you want to know? The basic point that keeps coming up is that certain non-Catholics keep asserting that a human being that is perfect must be a god.
Divinity and humanity are like dogs and cats. They are two different kinds of being. You can bathe your mutt and wash his fur and put pretty bows in it and feed it fish and train him to chase mice, but he will never be a cat.
Likewise, the perfected human, the human who is totally free from sin and perfect in every way, remains a human and not a god.
Everything, everything, that is said about Mary needs to be understood in this light. Mary is a human. We never assert anything other than that.
She was given special favor, all generations will call her blessed. We even believe that she was spared rotting in the grave. But this makes her a perfect human. Not a god.
In heaven, she has a special role. This is to help her Son distribute His graces.
This does not make her a god.
It makes her a highly favored, perfect, human being with a special role.
That is all. Those who like to make cracks about her being made part of a "quadiny" need to explain logically how what I have said changes Mary from a human into a divine being.
If you go to heaven and God assigns you the role of giving out the Hershey bars at snack time, does that make you divine? Does that make you the source of the Hershey bars?
Or does it just mean that God gave you, a human whom He has perfected in His Blood, a job to do?
SD
No, you did:
Our knowledge as of today is that the female egg is X chromosone. The male sperm are Ys and Xs. xx=girl xy=boy. If only tissue of Mary were replicated then wouldn't she have birthed a daughter? But, it didn't happen this way. Why? Caz we aren't as smart as we think we are? Caz with God all things are possible?
47,575 posted on 04/21/2003 10:48 AM EDT by CindyDawg
You stated that if Mary was the source of Jesus' humanity, that he woudl have to be female. That is, of course, to limit God in how He does His Miracles.
SD
Hummmm, NC's angels never sing, but Catholics angels do, because they have their own choirs. Not believing the Bible has it's rewards huh?
PS, there is not one scripture in the Bible that says the angels can sing, I guess it's a human trait only.
I hope you're not serious. It is interesting how often the various NCs here contradict themselves on whether explicit Scripture is necessary to make a claim or not.
We know angels can speak, as the Bible is clear on that. Why one would assume that a being with a voice is incapable of using that voice to sing is unclear?
Why would you assume that?
AS far as I can tell, anyone with a voice is capable of song, at least simple chant.
SD
In light of these passages, I think I see how the Catholic church could theoretically allow women priests someday. Something like this: "Since a woman, Mary, presented the sacrifice of Jesus to the Father, then a woman, acting in persona Mary, can offer the unbloody sacrifice of Jesus in the eucharist".
I'd keep your day job. ;-)
Not saying this will happen, but if it did happen, this is how it could be justified. The foundation is already laid out in the encyclicals I cited last night.
No. Never. You are missing the crucial identity of who a priest is. The priest is not some disciple or Mary offering the sacrifice of Calvary to the Father.
No, the priest is Christ offering Himself to the Father. There is absolutely zero room for a woman to represent Christ in this manner. Likewise, the aspect of re-creation of the Last Supper also has a decidedly male Jesus offering the Bread and Wine to His Apostles.
Remember the old hymn with the line "Christ the victim, Christ the priest."
SD
If you read the KJV of the Hebrew Scriptures you will notice that sometimes God is referred to as LORD God or Lord GOD. The LORD God is the second person of the Trinity while the Lord GOD is the first.
Try making the argument from the underlying language, not from English.
SD
I can remember when a Vidalia could be enjoyed like an apple. But, not in recent memory.
Me too. Ever try a Whala Whala? Are they any good?
Researchers at Penn State have developed an even sweeter onion and are now in the process of getting area farmers to buy into the program. I can't recall it exactly, but the brand was "Pennsylvania" something. I think this is the first year they will be out.
SD
I wasn't able to locate kosher wine locally, and I didn't have time to order some or take a trip to Milwaukee, so I had to settle for plain ol' kosher grape juice.
Chalk one up for our antiquated state store system. They pretty much carry everything in each store.
My mother-in-law was drinking some Manischewitz on Easter, and I pointed out that it really wasn't designed to go with ham.
SD
Here is an analogy. Suppose we have two people. One is a truck driver, and the other is an electrical engineer. They both own television sets. The truck driver has the owners manual and the remote control, and can operate the television without trouble. But he doesn't know how the television works. The engineer understands everything that goes on inside the box.
Following this analogy, the person who "calls upon the name of YHWH" is the man who owns the television. He trusts in YHWH for salvation, but he doesn't understand how it works. The truck driver can tell you that the television works (the one who calls upon YHWH can tell you that God saves us). The engineer can tell you how the television works (which would be analogous to the quotes you cited to me).
Don't worry, nobody every wants to follow my analogies either. ;-)
There's definitely an engineering joke in here somewhere. Like maybe the engineer can't exactly tell you how the TV works, but he can either: (1)tell you how he would have designed it better, (2)simply bluster with some made up stuff that sounds like he knows what makes it work, or (3)explain to you why it can't be fixed with the given time frame or budget.
SD
Likewise, the perfected human, the human who is totally free from sin and perfect in every way, remains a human and not a god.
Except that the only perfect human, in the sense that you are using it, born perfect was a God.
Your entire story is a man made invention. None of it is based on Scripture.
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