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[Elsie]

It's all short quips and funny memes, until you find that strawmen are all the rage these days.

[Philsworld]

Why aren’t these OSAS/OJAJ, easy peasy beleavy, microsecond of grace, one and done, born again Christians going to heaven?

Matthew 7:21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

[Elsie]

Why aren’t these OSAS/OJAJ, easy peasy beleavy, microsecond of grace, one and done, born again Christians going to heaven?

Probably for the same reason that upstanding, law-abiding members of the church aren't:

Luke 18:9-14

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:

10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

[Elsie]

Why aren’t these OSAS/OJAJ, easy peasy beleavy, microsecond of grace, one and done, born again Christians going to heaven?

Probably for the same reason that upstanding, law-abiding members of the church aren't:

Luke 18:9-14

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable:

10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

[Philsworld]

Nope. Different reason.

[wita]

Pretty much in any of the writings of Old Testament Prophets.

In particular quotations beginning with “In that day”.

Matthew Chapter 24 from the Inspired Version.

John’s Book of Revelation

The whole of the Book of Mormon

Etc, etc, etc,

[wita]

‘Tis a mighty bold statement!

We might just agree on that one.

[wita]

LDS in general are not going to argue the point.

The Bible is still the word of God, that has not changed and is the word of God unto salvation. Like it or not.

[wita]

Somehow I doubt “Mormon” had much to do with the subject.

It isn’t called the Church of Jesus Christ for nothing, and isn’t it just a coincidence that it legally resides in the hands of those who were driven out of the United States, carrying the US flag and with the permission of the US Government.

Nevertheless that does not change the fact that the Bible was and is the word of God, and that “Church” uses the KJV as the accepted version.

[Elsie]

It isn’t called the Church of Jesus Christ for nothing...

Oh?

Has THIS been changed?

---

---

Corporation of the President

ARTICLES OF INCORPORATION
of the
CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS
CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,

STATE OF UTAH

COUNTY OF SALT LAKE

I, the undersigned, having been duly chosen and appointed President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in conformity with the rites, regulations and discipline of said Church, being desirous of forming a corporation for the purpose of acquiring, holding and disposing of Church or religious society property, for the benefit of religion, for works of charity and for public worship, under and pursuant to the provisions of Chapter 3, Title 19, of the Compiled Laws of Utah, 1917, on "Churches and Religious Societies," and all acts amendatory thereof and supplementary thereto, for that purpose do hereby make and subscribe, in duplicate, the following

ARTICLES OF INCORPORATION

First: The name of this corporation shall be the CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.

Second: The object of this corporation shall be to acquire, hold and dispose of such real and personal property as may be conveyed to or acquired by said corporation for the benefit of the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a religious society, for the benefit of religion, for works of charity and for public worship. Such real and personal property may be situated, either within the State of Utah, or elsewhere, and this corporation shall have power, without any authority or authorization from the members of said Church or religious society, to grant, sell, convey, rent, mortgage, exchange, or otherwise dispose of any part or all of such property.

Third: The estimated value of the property of which I hold the legal title for the purpose aforesaid, at the time of making these Articles of Incorporation, is One Million, Five Hundred Thousand Dollars.

Fourth: The title of the person making these Articles of Incorporation is "PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS."

Fifth: The corporation seal shall contain the words, "Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," and an impression thereof is hereto affixed.

[Seal] [Signed] Heber J. Grant
President of the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints.

STATE OF UTAH
SS:
COUNTY OF SALT LAKE

On this 26th day of November, 1923, before me, Arthur Winter, a Notary Public in and for said County, personally appeared HEBER J. GRANT, who is known to me to be the person whose name is subscribed to the foregoing instrument as President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and duly acknowledged to me that he executed the same as such President.

[Seal] [Signed] Arthur Winter
Notary Public
Residing at Salt Lake City, Utah.
My commission expires Dec. 1, 1923.

---

AMENDMENT TO

ARTICLES OF INCORPORATION
of the
CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS
CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.

 

 

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
STATE OF UTAH ss.
COUNTY OF SALT LAKE

HEBER J. GRANT, being first duly sworn, deposes and says:

That he is now and for more than twenty years last past has been the duly chosen and appointed President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and as such President has been since on or about the 26th day of November, 1923, and now is, the legally constituted Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter=day Saints, a corporation sole; that under and pursuant to Section 18-7-5 R.S.U. 1933 he hereby amends Article "Fourth" of said Articles of Incorporation as now of record in the proper offices of this and other states, said article as amended to read as follows:

ARTICLE FOURTH

Fourth: The title of the person making these articles of incorporation is "President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." He and his successor in office shall be deemed and are hereby created a body politic and corporation sole with perpetual succession, having all the powers and rights and authority in these articles specified or provided for by law. But in the event of death or resignation from office of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or in the event of a vacancy in that office from any cause, the President or Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of said Church, or one of the members of said Quorum thereunto designated by that Quorum, shall, pending the installation of a successor President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, be the corporation sole under these articles, and the laws pursuant to which they are made, and shall be and is authorized in his official capacity to execute in the name of the corporation all documents or other writings necessary to the carrying on of its purposes, business and objects, and to do all things in the name of the corporation which the original signer of the articles of incorporation might do; it being the purpose of these articles that there shall be no failure in succession in the office of such corporation sole.

[Signed] Heber J. Grant
President of the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints,
corporation sole.
[Seal]

Subscribed and sworn to before me this 18 day of June, 1940.
[the name of Notary Public not shown on copy of amendment]

(Original in State of Utah Archives, Salt Lake City, Utah)

---

ARTICLES OF AMENDMENT
TO THE

ARTICLES OF INCORPORATION
of the
CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS
CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.

A UTAH CORPORATION SOLE

Pursuant to the provisions of Section 16-7-5 of the Utah Code Annotated 1953 (as amended) relating to amendments of articles of incorporation of corporations sole, the CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS, a Utah Corporation Sole, does hereby amend its Articles of Incorporation by adding an additional Paragraph V thereto as follows:

Upon the winding up and dissolution of this corporation, after paying or adequately providing for the debts and obligations of the corporation, the remaining assets shall be distributed to a nonprofit fund, foundation or corporation, which is organized and operated exclusively for charitable, educational, or religious and/or scientific purposes and which has established its tax-exempt status under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, the undersigned has caused these presents to be executed this 19th day of November, 1973.

CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE
CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY
SAINTS, a Utah Corporation Sole

By: [signed] Harold B. Lee
Harold B. Lee, Corporation Sole

STATE OF UTAH ) ss:
County of Salt Lake )

HAROLD B. LEE, being first duly sworn, deposes and says: That he is now and ever since July 7, 1972, has been the duly chosen and appointed President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and, as such president, is now and ever since said date has been the legally constituted CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS, a Utah Corporation Sole; that the original Articles of Incorporation of said Corporation Sole were executed by Heber J. Grant, President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints; that he, Harold B. Lee, is the successor in office to the said Heber J. Grant; that he, Harold B. Lee, executed the foregoing Articles of Amendment as said Corporation Sole.

[signed] Harold B. Lee

SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN to before me this 19th day of November, 1973.

[signed] Wilford W Kirton, Jr
NOTARY PUBLIC
Residing at Salt Lake City, Utah
My commission expires:
2-3-77

---

Articles of Incorporation as amended:

ARTICLES OF INCORPORATION

First: The name of this corporation shall be the CORPORATION OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS.

Second: The object of this corporation shall be to acquire, hold and dispose of such real and personal property as may be conveyed to or acquired by said corporation for the benefit of the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a religious society, for the benefit of religion, for works of charity and for public worship. Such real and personal property may be situated, either within the State of Utah, or elsewhere, and this corporation shall have power, without any authority or authorization from the members of said Church or religious society, to grant, sell, convey, rent, mortgage, exchange, or otherwise dispose of any part or all of such property.

Third: The estimated value of the property of which I hold the legal title for the purpose aforesaid, at the time of making these Articles of Incorporation, is One Million, Five Hundred Thousand Dollars.

Fourth: The title of the person making these articles of incorporation is "President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." He and his successor in office shall be deemed and are hereby created a body politic and corporation sole with perpetual succession, having all the powers and rights and authority in these articles specified or provided for by law. But in the event of death or resignation from office of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or in the event of a vacancy in that office from any cause, the President or Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of said Church, or one of the members of said Quorum thereunto designated by that Quorum, shall, pending the installation of a successor President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, be the corporation sole under these articles, and the laws pursuant to which they are made, and shall be and is authorized in his official capacity to execute in the name of the corporation all documents or other writings necessary to the carrying on of its purposes, business and objects, and to do all things in the name of the corporation which the original signer of the articles of incorporation might do; it being the purpose of these articles that there shall be no failure in succession in the office of such corporation sole.

Fifth: Upon the winding up and dissolution of this corporation, after paying or adequately providing for the debts and obligations of the corporation, the remaining assets shall be distributed to a nonprofit fund, foundation or corporation, which is organized and operated exclusively for charitable, educational, or religious and/or scientific purposes and which has established its tex-exempt status under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code.

Sixth: The corporate seal shall contain the words, "Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," and an impression thereof is hereto affixed.

[Elsie]

... it legally resides in the hands of those who were driven out of the United States...

I'm a bit confused.

What, exactly, is it?

[Elsie]

... “Church” uses the KJV as the accepted version.

In direct opposition to the command of GOD?

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D&C 124:89 

If he will do my will let him from henceforth hearken to the counsel of my servant Joseph, and with his interest support the cause of the poor, and publish the new translation of my holy word unto the inhabitants of the earth.

 

 

 

 

 

The King James Version of the Bible is not the Bible. 

 

The King James Bible and the Joseph Smith Translation | Religious Studies Center (byu.edu)

 

 

[Cronos]

Bipolar:

1. The acknowledge Word of God (in the capitals you wrote) is Jesus. Jesus is the Word of God.

2. The Bible is a collection of 73 books that are God-breathed, but written by human authors under divine inspiration.

3. Deut 4:2 refers to the 5 books of the Pentateuch (the books of Moses). If you consider that alone, then that means you are like the Samaritans - rejecting the writings of the Prophets and others as “not scripture” - and you also reject the New Testament as “not scripture”

4. Nowhere in the 73 books of the Bible do we have that those books contain all that is in the faith. It is never sola scriptura - not in the old testament (Deut refers to the commandments and Leviticus, not overall teaching) nor in the new (the end of revelation refers to the book of revelation alone)

5. Jesus’ disputes with the devil show that the devil also read the books considered scripture, yet Jesus never defines what IS or isn’t scripture. Nor does He say scripture alone. However He does say that

Matthew 18 “15 “If your brother or sister[b] sins,[c] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[d] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be[e] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[f] loosed in heaven.”

and Matthew 28 “ 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.”

and MArk 16 “. 15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”

And most of all John 21 “ 25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.”

[BipolarBob]

3. Deut 4:2 refers to the 5 books of the Pentateuch (the books of Moses). If you consider that alone, then that means you are like the Samaritans - rejecting the writings of the Prophets and others as “not scripture” - and you also reject the New Testament as “not scripture”

A subtle twisting of what I said. I accept the whole canon of the Bible. You err when you(or your denomination) do not. Deut 4:2 does NOT apply to the Pentateuch alone. This Catholic interpretation ignores Prov. 30:5,6 and Rev. 22:18,19 and John 10:35 etc etc etc Catholic (mans)traditions cannot be equal to Gods Word. Never has and never will.

[Cronos]

The name “Catholic Church” appears in writing first in the Letters of Ignatius of Antioch, apparently as something that’s been in use for a while. This is written a couple decades after Acts, in the same area.

The word, “catholic”, means universal. This is why that word was chosen as the name of the global church, first in distinction from the local churches, and then in distinction from other churches or movements that formed claiming to be somehow Christian, like Marcionites, Novationists, and Gnostics.

The communion of local Christian Churches that is called the Catholic Church by the end of the century during with the New Testament was written is in the bible, however.

the Bible rejects Sola Scriptura: 2 Thes 2:15 “Hold fast to the teachings from us, whether by written letter (scripture) or by word of mouth (Tradition).”

[Cronos]

BB I accept the whole canon of the Bible

So that means that you accept Tobit, Judith, Baruch, Sirach (or Ecclesiasticus), 1 Maccabees and 2 Maccabees as well as Wisdom.

[Cronos]

BB Deut 4:2 does NOT apply to the Pentateuch alone.

you haven't read the book of Deuteronomy then -

4 Now, Israel, hear the decrees and laws I am about to teach you. Follow them so that you may live and may go in and take possession of the land the Lord, the God of your ancestors, is giving you. 2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.

A Jew from 110 AD would then turn around and tell you, BipolarBobby, that the New Testament books "adds to Gods word and violates Deuteronomy 4:2 and Proverbs 30:5-6

Deuteronomy was written well before Proverbs (by a century and more) and well before the New Testament books (by a millenium and more)

So that means if you quote Deut to prove sola scriptura, you are rejecting every book written after the first five books of the Bible/Torah

The two from Deuteronomy deal with the Israelites’ observance of the Mosaic Law. The first says: “You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it; that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you”

Your using it to prove sola scriptura is utterly false - this does not mean there are no sources of revelation outside the Law. If they did, they would cancel the rest of the Old Testament and the New Testament.

They would also contradict Deuteronomy itself, which says: “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brethren—him you shall heed” (Deut. 18:15). Here Deuteronomy specifically foretells the arrival of additional sources of revelation (prophets), which the Israelites are to heed.

[Cronos]

BB This Catholic interpretation ignores Prov. 30:5,6 and Rev. 22:18,19 and John 10:35 etc etc etc Catholic (mans)traditions cannot be equal to Gods Word. Never has and never will.

Let's look at Proverbs 30:5-6 “Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6 Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar. -- it doesn't define which are the "every word of God" does it? Does it explicitly list out which books are to be considered scripture? And since Proverbs were written centuries before the New Testament books, does that mean you reject the New Testament books?

[BipolarBob]

2 Thes 2:15 “Hold fast to the teachings from us, whether by written letter (scripture) or by word of mouth (Tradition).”

A smokescreen interpretation. 2Peter 1:20,21 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Catholicism may indeed have started in some early years which proves nothing when it detours from the Word of God. Just one example is replacing the Sabbath (Gods chosen day of worship) to Sunday (at that time the pagan day of worship of the Sun). There are many other such examples of deviation.
A man made denomination will have man made oral traditions which are spurious.

[Cronos]

BB This Catholic interpretation ignores Prov. 30:5,6 and Rev. 22:18,19 and John 10:35 etc etc etc Catholic (mans)traditions cannot be equal to Gods Word. Never has and never will.

Let's look at Rev 22:18-19 -->

18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

This is explicitly about the prophecy that is the book of Revelation.

It says nothing about the other books of the Bible

In addition, the book of Revelation was written in 64 AD - predating the Gospel of John by at least 16 to 26 years.

So does that mean that you, Bipobarlob, reject the Gospel of John?