Posted on 12/25/2022 3:02:47 PM PST by SeekAndFind
[EXCERPT ONLY]
In 2009, on a grant from the John Templeton Foundation, the Browns flew to Mozambique to investigate the healing claims of Global Awakening and Iris Global, two ministries focused on healing and revival. They brought audiometry equipment and eye charts to test people who requested prayer for deafness and blindness. The sample size was small — they tested 24 people — but they found statistically significant improvement beyond placebo effects and hypnosis.
“I was standing right there next to this woman who could not tell how many fingers were held up when you were a foot in front of her,” Candy Brown told me. “Then five minutes later, she’s reading an eye chart with a smile on her face.” She and her colleagues published the results in The Southern Medical Journal — not a prestigious publication but a respectable one with peer review — and she drew on the research for her 2012 book, “Testing Prayer.”
Skeptics complained about the Browns’ methods and field conditions. They pointed out that the hearing tests were in a noisy setting, there was no control group and test subjects would naturally want to please those who prayed for them by showing results. “That simple trick explains why both hearing and sight appears to have dramatically improved among these poor, superstitious villagers,” one critic declared. (The study explained in detail how the researchers did their best to weed out false data.)
If you want to evaluate people’s experiences at a revival in rural Africa, you probably need to give up on double-blind studies in a perfectly controlled environment. But let’s imagine for a moment that researchers could meet such standards (and that an all-powerful deity humors us and submits to this scrutiny). They might persuade skeptics that something strange happened. But is there any evidence that would persuade a nonbeliever that God was behind it — that we do not live in a closed system in which all causation is a matter of natural laws?
RE: But how?
The Bible tells us “by their fruits, ye shall know them”.
The existence of demonic miracles is one reason why we must test all spirits: “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (1 John 4:1). Any time we are in doubt, we are to make sure that what is being taught lines up with what Scripture says.
If the miracle worker is teaching something contrary to God’s Word, then his miracles, no matter how convincing they seem, are a demonic delusion.
The assumption here is that the purpose of miracles is to convert unbelievers.
But let’s ask the question behind this.
What does God say is the purpose of miracles?
Most of the time Jesus says, let’s keep this between you and me.
That is not to say that there are not public miracles. But again, be careful. What is the purpose of those according to God.
One of the most interesting verses to me is:
Luk 2:19 but Mary kept all these things in her heart and thought about them often.
There was a very personal aspect to Mary’s miracle. But when personal miracles become public, they can be subject to much nefarious activity and misinterpretation.
Please note I am not against going public with miracles but note the dangers.
. But is there any evidence that would persuade a nonbeliever that God was behind it — that we do not live in a closed system in which all causation is a matter of natural laws?
Following the great departue / plucking up a strong delusion will help unbelievers believe a lie!
"Then he said to Thomas"
There's a big difference between doing exactly what GOD just told you to do and dreaming up your own experiments to see if God is real.
IMO.
If you want to put God under a microscope, that's your choice.
Personally, I don't recommend it.
If... if... if...
How is the average Joe to know whether the abstruse teachings of some self-proclaimed and even miracle-working prophet are contrary to the - sometimes very confusing - Word of God?!
Look at the Latter-Day Saints and their prophets. Or, if they are too extreme for you: Look at mainstream Lutherans!
Any apparent contradictions to, say, Catholic teachings they can adroitly "explain away," to their advantage. With decades to study and prepare themselves - or with literal centuries of scholars who have been "on their side" - they can do that.
The average Joe who doesn't read Hebrew or Ancient Greek or Latin has no chance outwitting and out-arguing them! And they can ALL point to miracles.
So, if every even obscure sect can point to some miracles they claim for their own, the only means we average Joes have to "out" the purveyors of demonic delusions is to detect, identify, and expose contradictions to the "true" Word of God as revealed in - which version of the Bible, again?
To re-iterate, your proposed solution for dividing false from true prophets is not ab initio invalid - it's just impractical for ordinary people lacking advanced degrees in Theology.
Regards,
RE: This happened almost overnight.
I think this might help: “When the student is ready, the teacher will come.”
The teacher is always present but the student does not hear. The lead-up to the moment is slow, a little at a time. But at some point your daughter was “ready.” She hears the teacher. WHAM! BAM! Everything changes.
Looks like a miracle, feels like a miracle. Maybe not. Might just be the way God set things up.
It is a great compliment to your daughter that she was/is a “student.” She saw, she heard, she remembered. It happened.
I am thinking that those who are not students will have few, if any, such wonderful moments. Scripture calls it “hardening of the heart.”
RE:What we see in the Bible is that miracles occur frequently for a short time, then are rare for hundreds of years.
There are three times when miracles are in larger numbers.
The Exodus, Jesus’ ministry, and, IIRC, during the time of Isaiah. (There were miracles in between those times, but relatively few in number.)
The purpose of the miracles was to be sign of the holiness and power of the Lord: To free the Israelites, to attest to the ministry of Jesus, and to warn of captivity to come.
I Corinthians 13:8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall FAIL; whether there be tongues, they shall CEASE; whether there be [special] knowledge, it shall VANISH away.
That miracles would cease can be inferred from the fact that the only ones who performed miracles were those who were given the special gift of the Holy Spirit. When they died the ability to perform signs, wonders and miracles died with them.
Time and chance to the godless evolutionist is what an omniscient omnipotent creator is to the Christian.
“Which of the thousands (of creation stories) have you chosen to believe?”
It must first be pointed out that it is false to presume that the presence of many possible answers to a question/problem “proves” that none of them is correct.
Secondly, it is also false to presume that there exists “thousands” of creation stories. In reality, as has been astutely pointed out: “When it comes to the truly Big Questions, there are very few men (or women) in the room.”
Answers which have garnered significant adherents among different human cultures include: polytheism, monism, belief in the divine Trinity, and atheism.
One could obviously spend all day arguing for or against these alternatives. I, for one, believe that the strongest case can be made for Trinitarianism.
Why? Because it is an irrefutable truth and reality that unimaginable levels of inherent design and complexity CANNOT spontaneously arise from time plus chance plus matter.
To give an example, suppose that during a walk in the woods, you were to suddenly and inexplicably come across a wristwatch laying on the path. Would you spontaneously exclaim: “There must have been some amazing confluence of minerals in the soil, moisture, etc. along with perhaps a perfectly-timed lightning bolt that “created” this watch!”
Anyone who would seriously propose such nonsense would be a candidate for a mental institution. We all know and recognize objects which obviously have been “made” by humans. Similarly, anyone who has studied living things on a cellular level cannot help but be amazed at the level of complexity and inherent design that is evident.
The biological cell has been compared to the astounding complexities of a vast metropolis. Furthermore, it is believed that we only understand about 3% of what is going on inside a cell.
This in a nutshell is one argument for “Intelligent Design.” The concept of the Trinity holds that the universe is not empty silence, but from time immemorial there has existed a Divine communication and relationship.
I have gone on too long. Hope this helps. Full disclosure: I have an earned B.A. in Bible and Theology, an M.A. in Theological Studies, and a Ph.D. in Religion, all from respectable institutions of higher learning.
No.
...but I have had success shutting them up.
They say they don’t believe and can’t understand why other’s do.
I ask them if they have ever tried to believe. Do an experiment. Apply the scientific method.
They lock up. So superior in every way, yet they can’t explain their lack of effort.
I guess it’s just funner to believe you’re better than everyone else, than actually hook yourself up to a d’arsenal movement and find out.
I was dead…
In trespasses and sin.
RE: If... if... if...
You strike me as someone who does not like a response that uses the word “if”. Unfortunately, the use of this word cannot be avoided if you ask the question “but how?” as you did.
RE: How is the average Joe to know whether the abstruse teachings of some self-proclaimed and even miracle-working prophet are contrary to the - sometimes very confusing - Word of God?!
I don’t know why you would say that the word of God is confusing when it clearly teaches how to differentiate the SOURCE of a miracle. I just cited a few verses for you. Tell me why they are unclear.
Regarding how the average Joe can know, it is the same principle that applies to any knowledge, whether
it is in the field of economics, health or even politics. There is no such thing as knowing without
WANTING to learn and trying to find out which source of information is more trustworthy and whose presentation of the evidence is valid. The Bible tells us to Love the Lord Our God with (among others),
our MINDS. There is no substitute for using our minds and our capacity to think.
For instance, in politics, one source tells us that Joe Biden is actually influence peddling his position through his son, Hunter. Another source tells us that it isn’t true ( even Joe himself and close to 50 former intelligence people tell us that it is Russian disinformation ).
How is the average Joe to know which is true and which is false?
Well, as I see it, Your question regarding understanding Biblical teaching applies to gaining satisfactory knowledge about Joe Biden’s issue of influence peddling. It applies in NUMEROUS issues, from whether or not Anthony Fauci was partly resonsible for the pandemic, or whether or not Democrat policies are responsible for increase in gas prices and inflation.
In other words— THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR WANTING TO KNOW and with that DESIRE, looking at the evidence
to see which ones are valid. Gaining satisfactory knowledge requires thinking. There is no other way IMHO.
RE: The average Joe who doesn’t read Hebrew or Ancient Greek or Latin has no chance outwitting and out-arguing them! And they can ALL point to miracles.
The average Joe does not have to know Hebrew, Greek or Latin. The ancient texts have been mostly translated into their own language for them to read and learn.
RE: So, if every even obscure sect can point to some miracles they claim for their own, the only means we average Joes have to “out” the purveyors of demonic delusions is to detect, identify, and expose contradictions to the “true” Word of God as revealed in - which version of the Bible, again?
I don’t understand your question regarding “which version” of the Bible.
The meaning of the verses that I cited as examples are THE SAME regardless of which version of the Bible you look at ( or which translation for that matter). It does not matter which ancient manuscripts (e.g. the Textus Receptus or the Alexandrian texts ) are use to translate them into the modern tongue — be it by Catholics, Protestants, or Orthodox. Maybe you can tell me which version does not contain the verses that I cite regarding miracles, then we can discuss it. But as of now, your question contains an assumption which I do not accept.
RE: To re-iterate, your proposed solution for dividing false from true prophets is not ab initio invalid - it’s just impractical for ordinary people lacking advanced degrees in Theology.
I have to disagree with this. One does not need an advanced theology degree to understand the teaching
in scripture as translated into the modern tongue.
BTW, regarding ab initio validity, I will concede that our discussion is dependent on one assumption — the acceptance of the Judeo-Christian worldview. I respond based on this assumption based on the assumptions made by the author of the article and based on the initial questions asked ( to which you entered the discussion... I was responding to Post #25). Now, if one does not even accept the Judaeo-Christian pre-supposition, then the question has to go back to whether or not the Judaeo-Christian God exists and other questions that flow from it. That is a topic for a different thread.
OTOH...
Luke 22:11-30 ESV 11 Soon afterward[c] he went to a town called Nain, and his disciples and a great crowd went with him.
18 The disciples of John reported all these things to him. And John, 19 calling two of his disciples to him, sent them to the Lord, saying, “Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?” 20 And when the men had come to him, they said, “John the Baptist has sent us to you, saying, ‘Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?’” 21 In that hour he healed many people of diseases and plagues and evil spirits, and on many who were blind he bestowed sight. 22 And he answered them, “Go and tell John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, lepers[e] are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have good news preached to them. 23 And blessed is the one who is not offended by me.”
24 When John's messengers had gone, Jesus[f] began to speak to the crowds concerning John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken by the wind? 25 What then did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft clothing? Behold, those who are dressed in splendid clothing and live in luxury are in kings' courts. 26 What then did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 27 This is he of whom it is written,
“‘Behold, I send my messenger before your face,
who will prepare your way before you.’
28 I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.” 29 (When all the people heard this, and the tax collectors too, they declared God just,[g] having been baptized with the baptism of John, 30 but the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected the purpose of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him.)
I find it strange that the WHOLe sentence is very seldom quoted,
To really have ‘chance’, one must know the odds.
There are NONE available to use. There are only hopes and guesses.
Where are your SCIENCE degrees?
--Ardent_Evolutionist(Hail Darwin!!)
Could, might, should, maybe, possibly, most say, some have indicated
All weasel words and phrases.
RE: Could, might, should, maybe, possibly, most say, some have indicated. All weasel words and phrases.
OK, which word to use then so that it will not be weasel words?
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