Posted on 07/26/2021 9:07:05 AM PDT by Cronos
There are some who would have the Church step back to avoid persecution or giving offense. Perhaps there are assets like buildings and land to protect. And maybe some rapprochement with the world will attract more members. Or so the thinking goes.
But a study of earlier periods of persecution reveals a different plan for the way forward: confidence, courage, boldness, and love—even for our enemies. Let’s look at some texts.
St. John Chrysostom knew all about exile and persecution. At a difficult time for him and his flock, he preached from the following text of St. Paul’s:
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.” Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men (1 Cor 1:18-25).
Of this passage, St. John Chrysostom said,
How the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and his weakness stronger than men! In what way is it stronger? It made its way throughout the world and overcame all men; countless men sought to eradicate the very name of the Crucified, but that name flourished and grew ever mightier. Its enemies lost out and perished; the living who waged a war on a dead man proved helpless.
Therefore, when a Greek tells me I am dead, he shows only that he is foolish indeed, for I, whom he thinks a fool, turn out to be wiser than those reputed wise. So too, in calling me weak, he but shows that he is weaker still. For the good deeds which tax-collectors and fishermen were able to accomplish by God’s grace, the philosophers, the rulers, the countless multitudes cannot even imagine (from a homily by St. John Chrysostom, bishop, on the First Letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians (Hom. 4, 3. 4: PG 61, 34-36)).
Such words ought to encourage us as well, for many today gleefully report the decline of faith and of the influence of the Church. 2000 years of history bears witness to the fact that those forecasting the doom of the Church will be long gone, and the Church will still be preaching the gospel.
Indeed, to paraphrase G.K. Chesterton, the Church has read the funeral rights over everyone who has predicated her demise. Where is Nero? Where is Domitian? Where is Napoleon? Where is Mao? Where is the Soviet Socialist Republic? Indeed, the largest statue of Christ in the world is reportedly being built in Russia right now. Where are so many heresiarchs? What happened to the erroneous philosophies and destructive trends that have been proposed? These things have come and gone; empires and nations have risen and fallen. But the Church is still here. Often persecuted, sometimes growing and sometimes struggling, but here, still here, always here. Twelve fishermen and other commoners with Jesus have established a stronghold in the world.
Scripture says,
Some trust in Chariots or Horses,
But we in the name of the Lord.
They will collapse and fall,
But we shall hold and stand firm (Psalm 20:8).
But of course this will happen only to the extent that, by God’s grace, we DO hold and stand firm. It will not happen by adopting the world’s ways or fearfully caving in to its demands.
There is a powerful description in Scripture of the time when Peter and John were arrested for causing a commotion in the Temple area (by healing the lame beggar and proclaiming Jesus at the Beautiful Gate).
Now when [the Jewish leaders] saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated, common men, they were astonished. And they recognized that they had been with Jesus (Acts 4:13).
Note that the Jewish leaders recognized that “they had been with Jesus.” Would anyone recognize this about you, or your parish, or your fellow parishioners, or even us clergy? This is our main goal in times like these: that others recognize that we have been with Jesus! In times like these, the Church must be the Church.
And notice this prayer in the Acts of the Apostles, of the early Church under persecution. It takes place just after the arrest of Peter and John, after they had been warned not to mention Jesus again.
“And now, Lord, look upon their threats and grant to your servants to continue to speak your word with all boldness, while you stretch out your hand to heal, and signs and wonders are performed through the name of your holy servant Jesus.” And when they had prayed, the place in which they were gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and continued to speak the word of God with boldness (Acts 4:29-31).
In her work on Acts, Dr. Mary Healy notes that they do not pray for safety or for their enemies to be vanquished; they pray to be able to continue to speak with boldness, to bring healing, and to announce Jesus and draw others to Him.
And this should be our prayer: Lord, keep us strong. Keep us bold and filled with love for our enemies and for all those who are troubled and in need of healing. Never allow us to hide or to be concerned for our own safety, but rather concerned only that your glorious and Holy Name bring healing and grace, conviction for our sins, repentance, and therefore mercy. Help us, Lord, to stay faithful, courageous, and bold no matter the threats, the hardships, the persecution, and even the ruthless attempts at suppression. May no one who looks at us conclude anything less than that we “have been with Jesus.”
Courage and holy boldness, fellow Catholics! The only way we will change the world (by grace) is to be Catholic through and through. The world does not know it, but Christ and His Body, the Church, are the only hope. Be authentically Catholic, and by that grace, save the world!
Your recourse to such blatant bombast in lieu of actual Scriptural substantiation will not help your prevaricating propaganda.
"Firstly, let's look at your term "heresy" - you call the orthodox view heresy and that's an oxymoron (like your posts in general) - a heresy is belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine. -- net-net, your views are heresy, not orthodox"
Rather, you are presuming what needs to be proved, i.e. that RC doctrine is orthodox, which presumes a sure and supreme standard, which only Scripture is, not a self-proclaimed conditionally "infallible" church, regardless of the delusions of RCs which trust in her.
"I said "one must be scrubbed clean of all sin in the final stage of sanctification. The sins were already forgiven. As usual, you make a strawman out of your own false reading"
Actually "forgiveness" also has a sense of being forgiven as to guilt or punishment, and there is that of forgiveness of unrepented venial sins. From your own Catholic Answers, and Pope St. Gregory the Great as well as Hardon:
Matthew 12:32 is often a go-to passage for Catholics when it comes to purgatory. The text reads: “Whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” Pope St. Gregory the Great wrote that, from this passage “we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come” (Dial. 4, 39). The Catechism of the Catholic Church uses this quote as support for its definition of purgatory as an after-death “final purification of the elect” (1031). Since purgatory involves the forgiveness of unrepented venial sins (along with the purification of any remnants of past forgiven venial or mortal sins—e.g., unhealthy attachments to created goods, unpaid debt of temporal punishment), some conclude that Jesus affirms the existence of purgatory. - https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/on-the-remission-of-sins-after-death
The poor souls in purgatory still have the stains of sin within them. This means two things. First, it means that the souls have not yet paid the temporal penalty due, either for venial sins, or for mortal sins whose guilt was forgiven before death. It may also mean the venial sins themselves, which were not forgiven either as to guilt or punishment before death. - https://hardonsj.org/poor-souls-purgatory-still-stains-sin-within/
Thus your argument is with Catholics here.
"Secondly as clearly stated "The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence. Those who, after death, exist in a state of purification, are already in the love of Christ Who removes from them the remnants of imperfection" --> this is not a place"
Actually Purgatory has traditionally often been termed a “place” and and I only referred to it being a place once and was not arguing for that definition and did not contrast it with being a condition and such can be both, and I followed with the statement "The term does not indicate a place, but a condition of existence." Hardon states "The place or condition in which the souls of the just are purified after death and before they can enter heaven." (https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35915) And as other of your brethen teach as regards spatial existence, Purgatory, "Heaven and Hell, can all be both places and conditions. Time is relative because we are talking about eternity." (https://www.askacatholic.com/_webpostings/answers/2006_04APR/2006AprImConfusedAboutPurgatory.cfm) I also quoted the Catholic Encyclopedia that by the close of the fourth century was taught "a place of purgation " (Catholic Encyclopedia>Purgatory) And which also taught "Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions." "the existence of a place of purgation are mentioned in conjunction in the oldest passages of the Fathers, who allege reasons for succouring departed souls...the Fathers speak, in the same breath, of oblations for the dead and a place of purgation;" "many who have died are still in a place of purification..."
Thus you are much flailing away at a ambiguous term that I did not make a point of.
The rest of your post is your standard bloviating strawman wherein you think that repeating your errors over and over again will make people think you know. Sorry, your way may worked since Goebbels
Meaning you must have wrote this to the man in your mirror.
Of course not, since as you do know, this is one of many doctrines that is not uniquely affirmed in Catholicism, which, as the link evidences, is what "distinctive Catholic teachings" refers to. Thus your attempted polemic is spurious, as usual.
The distinctive Catholic beliefs as you put it include the Trinity.
You use the term “Protestant” and that includes the Oneness pentecostals and until at least Eisenhower, the Unitarians. Neither of which are Trinitarians.
Hence the Trinity is a distinctive Catholic and Orthodox belief as opposed to your pre tribulation rapture beliefs
Of course he redeems us. Sheesh you take one word and light in it?
You’re cute. Find one Christian in the first thousand years of Christianity that agrees with your interpretation. I’ll give you your lifetime
And you are blinded by erroneous Catholic dogma. Been drinking that false Gospel koolaid a little too long apparently.
That’s an unartful dodge.
Find me a Cristian in the early Church that embraced the folly of your false interpretation. Cat got your tongue?
Wrong, fallacious and flailing. Where, just WHERE do you see the Trinity in my list of distinctive Catholic teachings that are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels)???
Why or what must you resort to reading a specific into what I wrote when it is simply not listed? But Rome does so even with Scripture. Both of which are arguments against being a Catholic.
"You use the term “Protestant” and that includes the Oneness pentecostals and until at least Eisenhower, the Unitarians. Neither of which are Trinitarians."
Where and in what context do I myself use the term “Protestant” to describe the faith I am defending, and infer that means all that falls under that term today? Why must you read that into what I said when it is not there, and I refute doctrines that such as the Unitarians hold to as well as other so-called Protestants and usually use more specific terms?
Your deceptive desperation is all to evident.
Why are you (also) attributing a belief you me that I do not teach and have actually argued against here - even in response to you?! Careless or simply ignorant?
Twice no less! See my rejection also here in a thread you began.
The poster uses that technique to try and niggle anger from you. He knows when he is lying and uses that technique in his dishonesty. Don’t give him such a benefit of doubt to wonder if it is ignorance or carelessness. He is doing it on purpose.
When you begin your sermonette conflating The Church with the Catholic ORG, there is little expectation that an honest offering follows.
Your Catholicism ORG is not the True Church Jesus established based upon profession of faith alone in Him alone. Shucks, the current incantation of Catholicism isn’t even Christianity ... with mary-idolotry and ever striving to obtain eternal life only to earn the Gregory’s mythos of purgatory, as if God is not able to fully accomplish what He promises. Icons and minarets ... what show!
Wow! PTL!
You mean “agent provocateur.” The incessant RC posting of provocative propaganda could be said to do this, although it has resulted in such being exposed and refuted time and again, by the grace of God. But which includes provoking us to make personal attacks (versus addressing the issue) even if warranted, but thus we need to be more careful even when they do the like.
Rather, only the metaphorical understanding easily conflates with the rest of Scripture, and especially as regards John 6, versus the incarnate Christ being manifest as an non-existent inanimate object, whose appearance and all testable aspects do not conform to what He materially became in His incarnation, nor any Divine being, meaning a false Christ.
See here and more, by God's grace:
The Lord's Supper: metaphorical commemoration or the consumption of the metaphysical "real" body and blood of the Lord Jesus?
(Note: allow scripts for pop up Bible verses
4. 1Cor. 10,11 |
5. The Lord's Supper in the record and descriptions of the New Testament church |
6. Purely literal versus the contrived Catholic interpretation |
11. Endocannibalism |
12. Conclusion |
"Unless you eat my flesh (greek - literally gnaw) or drink my blood ( gurgle) you will not have eternal life. Does this offend you?"
So in response to Jn. 3:3, are you saying that Jn. 6:53 means that one must believe in transubstantiation and receive the Catholic Eucharist to be regenerated, and thus obtain spiritual life in himself? Remember to be consistent with your professed literal understanding.
Try four: Call no man father.
And you are then saying that Jesus is a door.
Guess what, the Catholic church is as corrupt an organization as there is. Infiltrated with pedophiles and homosexuals and riddled with non biblical stupidity that only fools choose to believe. If you want to believe that being Catholic buys you a ticket to Heaven, feel free.
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