Posted on 06/07/2021 5:23:12 PM PDT by Its All Over Except ...
The Talmud/Mishnah states that the Masoretic Text (a medieval text used by the KJV, NIV, NASB, etc) was corrupted as the Talmud/Mishnah described conflicting texts, contradictions, and multiple, competing rabbis intentionally altering scriptures and thus they ultimately corrupted it). The Septuagint (translated in the mid 3rd century BC) is far older than the Masoretic Text (MT) and the MT isn't original scripture and not a BC text anyway.
Paleo Hebrew, used after Moses' time and used from the 12th to 6th century BC (around 2,000 years older than the MT), gave way to Square Hebrew (around 1,300 years older than the MT), which then eventually gave way to Greek, as evidenced by the Septuagint, which is around 1,000 years than the MT. The Septuagint predates Christianity, used when Greek became the lingua franca, and its use in synagogues around the Mediterranean was substantial.
Paleo Hebrew, Square Hebrew, and the Septuagint (LXX) within the Dead Sea Scrolls (DSS) preserve the originals, and overwhelmingly disagree with the MT in numerous instances; the Septuagint predates Christianity and scrolls from it are found within the Dead Sea Scrolls.
1.) Exodus 1:5 in the DSS agrees with the Septuagint against the MT/KJV/NABRE/NASB/NIV/RSV/RSVCE/ that all the souls from Jacob were 75, not 70, thus agreeing with St. Stephen in Acts 7:14.
2.) The older DSS, the Samaritan Pentateuch, Aramaic Targums, etc, agree with the Septuagint against the MT (and KJV/NASB/NIV) for Deut. 32:8-9 in using sons/angels of God and not sons of Israel.
3.) The DSS for Deuteronomy 32:43 lines up with the Septuagint against the MT (and KJV/NABRE/NASB/NIV/RSV/RSVCE) saying the angels are to worship messiah.
4.) The Septuagint for 1 and 2 Samuel are backed up by 3 DSS and the MT is known among scholars as botching 1 and 2 Samuel badly.
5.) The MT wrongly (some evidence for #4) has Saul becoming king at age one and ruling for two years.
6.) The MT actually left out an entire line from Psalm 145 that the DSS and the Septuagint preserved, thus the so-called masters of vowel memorization not only forgot vowels but also consonants.
7.) Psalm 40:6(7): a messianic proof text for the Incarnation:
The MT (and KJV/NABRE/NASB/NIV/RSV/RSVCE): Thou hast dug out my ears.
The Septuagint: A body thou hast prepared me.
8.) Concerning another messianic psalm, Psalm 22:16, the DSS agrees with the Septuagint against the MT.
9.) Baruch, Sirach, Tobit, and Psalm 151 are written in Hebrew in the DSS.
10.) ▪︎The chronology of Genesis 11 and the year of the flood of the Paleo Hebrew and the Septuagint line up against the MT. Shem is not Melchizedek:
▪︎Literary sources before 100 AD that agree with the LXX: 2 Esdras, Josephus and Philo (30/70 AD) did not use the Septuagint but used Square Hebrew texts to come to their conclusion that lines up with the Septuagint.
▪︎Eupolemus, the Jewish 2nd century BC historian's chronology, comes close to aligning with the Paleo Hebrew and Septuagint and against the MT.
▪︎Jewish Demetrius the Chronicler's (3rd century BC) chronology comes very close to the Paleo Hebrew and Septuagint and against the MT.
*Justin Martyr said the scriptures were being altered in his time period. See Jeremiah 8:8.
▪︎https://biblearchaeology.org/research/biblical-chronologies/4349-mt-sp-or-lxx-deciphering-a-chronological-and-textual-conundrum-in-genesis-5
Since synagogues around the Mediterranean used the Septuagint and Square Hebrew, even in Palestine, Greek was the lingua franca, Jesus grew up near Sepphoris where Hebrew and Greek were both spoken and where Joseph could ply his trade, Christ quoted the scriptures, spoke to the Syrophoenician woman, and Mark/Luke were written to Romans/Greeks, some will be hard-pressed to prove Jesus used only Hebrew.
Outside Judea, close to 100% of the diaspora synagogue inscriptions are in Greek. In Judea, where the default language is Aramaic, 80% of synagogue inscriptions are in Greek.
Some have said the Deuterocanon was never written in Hebrew but the DSS (Dead Sea Scrolls) proved that to be false as at least 3 so far (Baruch, Sirach, and Tobit of the Deuterocanon), have been found within the DSS written in Hebrew, and using the word "recension" against them is a continual knee-jerk reaction to the Deuterocanon being written in Hebrew and thus a moving of the goal posts.
Concerning key messianic scriptures, Catholics, Copts, Orthodox, and Protestants see that the leaven of the rabbis and then later the Masoretes seemed to target scriptures that point to Jesus Christ. (Matthew 16:6).
The Paleo Hebrew, Square Hebrew, and the Septuagint all agree with each other against the MT far more than they disagree, thus the starting point is to sideline the MT in favor of the totality of the Septuagint, Paleo Hebrew, Samaritan Pentateuch, Aramaic Targums, Peshitta, Codex Vaticanus, Sinaiticus and others which provide substantially older Old Testaments.
There are dozens and dozens of instances where the Paleo Hebrew, Square Hebrew, and the Septuagint agree against the MT: By the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses let every word be established. Deut. 19:15; 2 Cor. 13:1.
Given that Septuagint scrolls were found with Paleo Hebrew and Square Hebrew scrolls in the DSS, one would again be hard-pressed to prove that Christians composed the Septuagint and, as well, the Torah was translated into Greek from 283-246 BC under Ptolemy II Philadelphus and the prophets and writings within the next 100 years.
Septuagint Chronicles is quoted by Eupolemos in the middle of the 2nd century BC, and Septuagint Job by Pseudo-Aristeas in the beginning of the 1st century BC thus Christians and certainly not Origen created it. Furthermore...
The translation of Isaiah contains allusions to historical situations and events that point to the years 170-150 BCE" (Textual Criticism of the Hebrew Bible, Emanuel Tov, p 131, 2012).
Septuagint fragments found at Qumran (Lev.), the Nahal Hever (Habbakuk, near Ein Gedi), dated 50 BC, Deut. fragments dates 2nd century BC.
Proseuche (forerunner to the synagogue) foundation stones in Egypt are dated 120 to 240 BC. If you gather in a church or synagogue, its origins are found in Hellenistic Egypt as they are foreign to temple-only thought. The synagogue ultimately spread to Israel along with the Septuagint (Theodotus inscription, in Greek, a synagogue in Jerusalem, 1st century AD).
Archaeological surveys "...of Palestinian synagogue inscriptions revealed that 67 were in Greek, 54 were in Aramaic and 14 in Hebrew. Most of the Greek inscriptions were found in the coastal and important inland cities." (Caesarea under Roman rule, Lee Levine).
Concerning archeological findings: the Delos synagogue dates to 250 BC and the Magdala synagogue: dates to 50 BC.
There was almost exclusive use of Greek in all synagogue inscriptions everywhere in the world.
Rereading this— you clearly don’t believe the veracity of the Torah (the “OT”)
Seems more like between 2nd century CE and Nicaea, Cronos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity
Rabbinical Judaism (as you call it) I concede adapted post-Temple ritual (”What do we do now without a Temple, ey?”) even the structure of our liturgy is pre-destruction, pre-70CE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Assembly
Not true— Codified between 2nd and 6th centuries... not composed. The Mishna is from Sinai, and the Gemara (Talmud is the commentary of the discussions of the sages who lived up to the 2nd Temple. That’s the Aramaic part.
Look at a Jewish source once in a while:
Talmud: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ioro9x-Wo8
On the Oral Law (codified as the Mishna) How can it have been transmitted:
https://www.simpletoremember.com/media/a/oral-tradition-video/
If they accepted Marcionism then you would be correct, but Marcionism (which rejected the OT god as a demiurge) was a rebellion against Christian thought of the Trinity.
Rabbinical Judaism which is the proper term for today's "Judaism" is really a sister sect of Christianity - it is "what do we do without a Temple", yes. The structure of the liturgy is no different than the "Christian" - more precisely "Jesus movement Judaism" structure of the Liturgy of the Word
Both Jesus-movement Judaism and Rabbinical Judaism have the commonality of the liturgy of the word, which is quite a contrast to the structure of worship in say Hinduism or Zoroastrianism
The Samaritans have their own Torah which is more or less the same as the Rabbinical Judaic Torah BUT they reject the Prophets and definitely the Talmud as "later additions"
I see it as
I've condense a lot and oversimplified a lot in the above, so ask away and we can discuss civilly as you do :)
Well, I said composed because I don’t see historical traces for the Mishna except as the echoes of them in the Oral Torah of the Pharisees.
But I agree that the more accurate term would be “codified” as I can’t factually prove that they WEREN’T created before that time.
Thank you for the links to Jewish sources — I fully agree I have more to learn about your side of the argument, and I would also argue that you would need to learn about the Christian side of the argument - and the Samaritan and the Sadducee.
If you have more links or books about the Jewish side besides the actual Talmud (which I am still wading through - and that’s the key term “wading”) - I would welcome it
Superior?
Compared to WHAT?
DIFFERENT is about all we can accurately say about it, since we have ZERO ‘originals’ to look at.
It’s like the KJ only folks, but set farther back in time!
There ya go!
I wonder what Mathew 23:9 references?
Makes ya wonder which ‘version’ of the Isaiahan scroll the eunuch was reading when Philip came by.
True indeed!
My NIV footnotes show where in the OT these things are found. Some read more like a paraphrase than a quote.
So; you read Greek; eh?
We can do better than that!!
Oh?
They seem to be of little help in understanding (and OBEYING) Matthew 23:9.
Oh?
I would imagine that thousands of sermons preached from this text would have a differing view of the situation.
I had the feeling that there were more things to ‘discuss’ than dancing angels - pinwise.
This thread proves me right.
Can’t you read the article before commenting?
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