Posted on 03/04/2020 7:44:23 AM PST by Gamecock
All cults and manmade religions are based in “works righteousness.” Their adherents believe they have to do something to earn their way to heaven—pray five times a day, lie on beds of nails, do good works, fast, repeat certain prayers, etc. They do this because they are ignorant of God’s standard of righteousness. This is why they need the Law of God to show them that the leap they are trying to make is infinitely wider than the Grand Canyon. However, before you take them through the Law, help them see that they are indeed trusting in “works” for salvation.
Let’s say there are a couple of cult members at my door. I warmly ask for their names, and then say, “I have a knife in my back. I am dying and have only three minutes to live. What do I need to do to enter heaven/paradise/the kingdom of God?” They look concerned. One says, “A lot.” I ask, “What do you mean ‘a lot’? I have only two minutes to live. Help me.” They will normally say they cannot help someone who has just a couple of minutes to live, because their salvation is based on gaining knowledge and doing “good works.” The fact that they must do things to be saved reveals that they are trusting in their “self-righteousness.”
When I then ask if they think they are “good” people, they almost always say they are, and that is the root cause of their deception. While they know they are sinners, they believe their sin is not so bad that they cannot earn their own way out of it and “merit” heaven. So they must be taken through the Law and made to understand that they are criminals in the sight of a holy Judge, and are guilty of countless crimes. They must be taken through the Law and made to understand that they are criminals in the sight of a holy Judge, and are guilty of countless crimes. They must understand that God is perfect and holy, that He considers lust to be adultery and hatred to be murder, and He will see to it that absolute justice is done. That means adulterers, murderers, liars, and thieves will be damned forever. Once they recognize that, they will understand that their “good” works are not good at all, but are in reality a detestable attempt to bribe the Judge of the universe. Hopefully they will trust in His mercy alone to save them.
That is how the thief on the cross was saved—through mercy alone. He didn’t go anywhere or do anything to save himself. He couldn’t, because he was nailed to the cross. He had no other avenue but to humbly turn to Jesus and say, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom” (Luke 23:42). In doing so, he acknowledged Jesus as Lord, and believed that He would rise from the dead (Rom. 10:9).
That is all that any who are involved in “works righteousness” religions need to do to be saved. They are condemned by the Law. They cannot go anywhere or do anything. All they can do is turn to Jesus and trust in Him alone for their salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves; “it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast” (Eph. 2:8,9). So plant that seed in the hearts of those who think they can be saved by their own works, then pray that God causes it to grow and produce fruit.
In Acts both Peter And Paul warn in their witnessing of future judgment on those who don’t accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
That appears too deep for the poster to have grasped.
In Acts both Peter And Paul warn in their witnessing of future judgment on those who don’t accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The key here is that the word “judgement” is a general term. It begs the question, “what is the judgement” and “what is the negative consequences”. That is not discussed.
I have a feeling that if a person has never heard the message of Christ, but they know in their heart of hearts, what they “deserve”, when someone mentions the forgiveness of Christ vs “judgement”, they would be afraid. I would be, without the judgement even being detailed. I know what I think I deserve - without the blood of Christ.
So all they are really saying is that yes, it matters what they do, which should terrify all men - until they hear and accept the gospel. Even if that judgement is living in an earthly hell without the protection of our Creator.
i.e. the mere use of the word “judgement” allows the listener to make it mean whatever negative they want it to mean, just as the genius use of the phrase “hope and change” by Obama allowed the listener to make it mean whatever positive they wanted it to mean.
If that judgment doesn't mean damnation then why should it terrify all men? And since you admit final judgment is an essential element of the Gospel, how would you respond when you get the inevitable question: "What does this judgment consist of?" Scripture makes clear what the judgment consists of - eternal damnation.
I choose not to go down this rabbit trail here. The reason is that you are drilling into words and inferring meaning to them that is debatable.
e.g. “damnation”.
What is eternal damnation, you may ask? the explanation is here: http://jewishnotgreek.info/
So, answer the question. What are you going to tell someone when they ask what the judgment the bible consists of? Eternal damnation has been the teaching of your church for 2000 years, are you going to tell them something different? And the link you cited doesn’t even deal with the issue in this context.
I gave a link. My answer would be eternal damnation.
Or, as some would say, eternal punishment.
And that begs two questions. One for each word. :)
BTW, regarding the “...the teaching of your church for 2000 years...”. Before the reformation, a lot of Catholic doctrine was the teaching of the church for a very long time. The Protestants threw a lot of it out.
My point is only that, when discussing issues such as this, just as the invention of the printing press gave us the reformation, the internet is purifying the Church as well, and even more. A lot of adiaphora beliefs are and will be changing, IMO.
What does that have to do with this question. Neither Catholics or Protestants "threw out" the doctrine of eternal damnation as a consequence of and an essential element of the Gospel.
I was merely pointing out that using the “people have taught this for a long time” argument doesn’t really hold water. And I answered your question here: https://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3821624/posts?page=88#88
As I said, I believe the doctrine of eternal “damnation”.
I feel like were talking in circles here.
How does using your 1st Amendment rights logically trample on the 1st Amendment rights of the recipient?
Switching to your religion is doing something. If there is no need to do anything then religion, including your, is pointless.
Note the word "earn" which qualifier is what you ignore.
Sola Fide does not mean one is born again and converted while comatose or the like, as if no response is needed, but that conversion is not the result of the merit of works, as if one obtains acceptance by God by actually becoming good enough and thereby enter Heaven thru Purgatory (as in Roman Catholicism).
Instead, it is the heart-purifying regenerating faith (Acts 10:43; 15:7-9) is counted for righteousness, making one accepted in the Beloved on His account, and made to spiritually sit with Christ in Heaven, by whose blood the believer has immediate access into the holy of holies in Heaven to petition God. (Eph. 1:6; 2:6; Heb. 10:19)
But that this requires a choice being made by the subject to believe ("if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved" (Romans 10:9), yet this does not earn salvation, and man deserves zero credit for doing so.
For man could not and would not believe on the Lord Jesus or follow Him unless God gave him life, and breath, and all good things he has, (Acts 17:25) and convicted him, (Jn. 16:8) drew him, (Jn. 6:44; 12:32) opened his heart, (Acts 16:14) and granted repentance (Acts 11:18) and gave faith, (Eph. 2:8,9) and then worked in him both to will and to do of His good pleasure the works He commands them to do. (Phil. 2:13; Eph. 2:10)
Thus man owes to God all things, (1 Chronicles 29:14; 1 Corinthians 4:7) and in conversion God enables and motivates man to do what he otherwise would not and would not do, and while man is guilty and rightly damned for resisting God contrary to the level of grace given him, (Prov. 1:20-31; Lk. 10:13; 12:48; Rv. 20:11-15) - which disobedience is the only thing man can take credit — under grace (which denotes unmerited favor) God has chosen to reward faith, (Heb. 10:35) in recognition of its effects, which obedience (again) God both enabled and motivated.
And which means that God justifies man without the merit of any works, which is what Romans 4:1-7ff teaches, with “works of the law” including all systems of justification by actually properly meriting it by works, “for, if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.” (Galatians 3:21)
However, saving faith effects obedience by the Spirit, (Romans 8:12-14) and justifies one as being a believer, and fit to be rewarded under grace for such, (Mt. 25:30-40; Rv. 3:4) though only because God has decided to reward man for what He Himself is to be actually properly credited for.
To God be the glory.
Which is a fantasy that you can only wish was what Scripture teaches. Abraham and Lazarus and OT saints were not in Abraham's bosom in order to receive more revelation - esp. that of lying Joe Smith - but they were there because, as with Abraham, they were justified by faith.
However, while sins were forgiven even before the perfect propitiation of Christ, this was done under the rubric of the coming atonement, and which was necessary to open the way into the holy of holies in Heaven.
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (Hebrews 10:4)
Thus
the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: (Hebrews 9:8)
Thus OT believers could not actually enter in the holy of holies, yet neither were they with the lost and suffering in bondage. For in the true story (real names are not used in parables, nor was science fiction used by the Lord, which would be the case if this was not true, but instead, known physical realities were used which corresponded to real spiritual realities) of Lazarus and the Rich Man. In which Lazarus is comforted in a separate compartment of Hades, Abraham’s bosom (AKA Paradise) while the once-complacent uncaring rich man is tormented in the flames of Hell:
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Luke 16:22-24)
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. (Luke 16:26)
However, the death and resurrection of Christ changed the reality of the believers, whereby brethren have boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh." (Hebrews 10:19-20)
And thus,
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) (Ephesians 4:8-10)
Therefore the Lord could tell the contrite believing criminal,
Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:43) Which 2 Corinthians 12:2 teaches is Heaven.
Put all together, when Christ died then having provided the perfect atonement, then the way into the holiest of Heaven was opened, and the Lord who has the keys of Hell and of Death, descended into Hell, delivering those believers, and taking them to glory. Thus,
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. (Matthew 27:50-53)
However, Christ also used His key to preach to the disobedient,
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. (1 Peter 3:19-20)
These were not saved souls, nor does 1 Peter 4:6 (For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit) necessarily say that Christ preached them so that they may be saved, rather than referring having preached to them who are now dead, so that they may live. The rich man in Hades was not given a second chance, nor is this really something that is taught.
And what could be preached to the damned disobedient souls would be that by rejecting Noah then they in essence were rejecting Christ. Likewise those who have never heard the gospel are justly damned for rejecting whatever degree of grace and light they had, which is essence is rejecting "the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." (John 1:9)
So is your objection the of Truth ultimately being exclusive by nature and rejecting of it having negative consequences, or is your objection that of the nature of the consequences, of eternal bliss having as its corollary eternal punishment, with differing degrees? And or is your objection that of Christ being the Truth He claimed to be?
Wrong. God made the meaning of judgment manifest, versus “hope and change,” using death, and such examples as the Flood, and Sodom, and plagues of Egypt and the Babylonian captivity (which accounts traveled), in illustrating temporal judgment. And further revealed the spiritual reality of judgment in the NT. Peter did not need to use the word Hell in order convey the same by warning unbelievers, "The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool." (Acts 2:34-35)
Pagans were/are given and innate moral sense (Rm. 2) which includes a sense of supernatural consequences for sin.
It depends on how they come across.
Pompous and arrogant gets one method; gentle and seeking gets another.
Sounds interesting.
Got chapter and verse on this?
A good example of Christian behavior by one who says he is amoung the saved.
Matthew 15:16
"Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.
Matthew 231. Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
2. "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
3. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
4. They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5. "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long;
6. they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
7. they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
8. "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
9. And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
10. Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
11. The greatest among you will be your servant.
12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
14. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
15. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16. "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
17. You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
18. You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
19. You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
20. Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
21. And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
22. And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
23. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
24. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
25. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
26. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
27. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
28. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
29. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
30. And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31. So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
32. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
33. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
34. Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
35. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
37. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
38. Look, your house is left to you desolate.
39. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "
Mark 7:26-27
26. The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
27. "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
And St. Paul chimes in...
Galatians 5:12
As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
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