NY Archdiocese Priest: Jesus Did Not Understand Homosexuality

JosephSciambra.com ^ | May 10, 2018 | Joseph Sciambra

[ebb tide]

Fr. Michael K. Holleran, a Catholic priest, Sensei (Zen Teacher) and a former Carthusian Monk, is Parochial Vicar at the Church of Notre Dame in New York City.

According to his biography on the website for the New-Age Copper Beech Institute, Holleran was ordained as a Jesuit, then left the order after five years to join the Carthusians: “In 2009, he was formally received as a priest of the Archdiocese of New York and became a Sensei in the Zen tradition, at the hands of his longtime mentor, Roshi Robert Kennedy, S.J. He currently serves at Notre Dame Church in Morningside Heights, Manhattan and leads the Dragon’s Eye Zendo in midtown Manhattan.”

Referencing the Scripture reading: Romans 11:13-15, 29-32, during a 2014 homily, Holleran said:

The Jewish covenant was the natural olive tree and the gentiles have been grafted on, kinda stuck together…How is this gonna work? It doesn’t seem natural, it doesn’t seem right. He does use the phrase para phusis, which means not exactly against nature, but alongside nature, not what’s expected, not what’s supposed to work, not what’s supposed to be right. Bring in the gentiles…Interestingly, the same phrase, that I just pointed out, the very same phase, para phusis, he used in Chapter 1 talking about activity which today referring to homosexuality…against nature is too strong a translation. Its more like along side nature, not what we’d expect, not what’s customary, not what’s supposedly right. Is there a connection? Same phrase, by the same author, in the same letter. We should wake up to the fact that there are things we don’t understand. That’s gonna blow our minds, that are gonna bring us out of our comfort zone…supposedly contrary to what God said in the beginning…how are we not seeing these things? Well, I guess we’re not seeing them because maybe Jesus didn’t.

In 2017, Jesuit priest James Martin proposed that homosexuals are “differently ordered.”

During a lecture entitled: “Sodomites? Really?,” sponsored by the LGBT group at St. Paul’s the Apostle Church in New York City, on September 28, 2014, Holleran argued, among other things, that the Sodom and Gomorrah story had “nothing” to do with homosexuality, as, according to him “they must be understood in the context of their time.” With regards to the Church’s teachings on homosexuality, according to Holleran, they are built upon “shaky ground.” He said:

“…if a sincere gay person, for example, is struggling with his or her own inner discovery, then says let me look at Scripture – oh, it doesn’t say what they always said if you look at it from this point of view…then maybe my experience does have some validity…On the levels of truth that everything is infallible – This is on shaky ground according to the way it’s been presented to me and been presented over the centuries, then I actually have not only a right but a duty maybe to start questioning this. And to say maybe my experience – What Jesus is saying to me now! What the spirit is saying to the Churches now! …is something really important that we need to hear.”

He envisions change within the Church, like James Martin, through dialogue: “love shows itself in the ability to dialogue.” As an example, he pointed to a meeting between a Catholic Bishop and a “gay couple;” as he related the story, Fr. Holleran said that, afterwards, the Bishop remarked: “…how can we call people like that objectively disordered?” Holleran concluded: “what transforms hearts is when you really actually do hear people’s experience.” In his book “Building a Bridge: How the Catholic Church and the LGBT Community Can Enter into a Relationship of Respect, Compassion, and Sensitivity,” James Martin said the same thing:

Many church leaders do not know L.G.B.T. people who are public about their sexuality. That lack of familiarity and friendship means it is more difficult to be sensitive. How can you be sensitive to a person’s situation if you don’t know them?

Holleran also described “The Holy Trinity” as an example of “an alternative lifestyle. During this same talk, Holleran mentioned how he discussed all of these issues with a confused same-sex attracted young man: “I had a young gay man, last year, who came to me for spiritual direction.” Holleran then described how he schooled him on just how wrong the Church is about homosexuality.

During a “Gay Spirituality” retreat held at St. Boniface Catholic Church in Brooklyn, Holleran claimed that “gay” men are more receptive to spirituality because they practice anal sex:

“…men hate church and spirituality because they have to sit still and they have to be receptive. There is nothing more threatening to a male than being receptive. I mean, think about it sexually – maybe that’s why gay men are more ready for it.”

He also said: “I don’t care what people say, I think Gay Pride Parade is wonderful; all those people dancing around with not many clothes on…it’s beautiful.”

Concerning the New York City Gay Pride Parade, in his Introduction to Fr. John Harvey’s book “The Truth About Homosexuality” (1996), Fr. Benedict Groeschel, C.F.R. made the following observation:

I recently viewed the Gay Pride Parade during a prayer vigil alongside St. Patrick’s Cathedral and saw an incredible display of self-defeating and self-deprecating behavior…when one considers the ruin of human lives, the persistent spread of AIDS by promiscuous sexual activity, and the psychological conflict one observes in the gay scene, the haunting question comes, “Can I approve of behavior that so frequently leads to destruction?”

In 2014, Holleran lead a discussion on John J. McNeill’s books “Taking a Chance on God,” for the St. Francis [de Sales] Gay Straight Catholic Alliance Book Club; in that particular work, McNeill proposed an all-inclusive type of Christian spirituality which meets the “special needs” of lesbians and gays; McNeill also stated that: “In all cultures and in every period of history, a certain percentage of men and women develop as gays and lesbians. These individuals could be considered as part of God’s creative plan. Their sexual orientation has no necessary connection with sin, sickness, or failure; rather, it is a gift from God to be accepted and lived out with gratitude. God does not despise anything that God has created.”

In the St Francis Xavier Church bulletin, appeared a blurb (May 8, 2016) advertising a course to be given by Holleran. The topic of Fr. Holleran’s presentation: Amoris Laetitia. During his talk, Holleran openly questioned Pope Francis’ statements regarding modern gender theory and homosexuality – Holleran said:

“We have to welcome gay people and accept them as they are and accept it’s not a changeable thing, it’s not a choice – the Church does say that.”

On June 8, 2017, during a Facebook Live James Martin said:

That’s the way God created you. I think almost every psychologist and biologist and scientist would agree on that; and certainly LGBT people will tell you that’s the way they always felt – that they had been created that way.

In 2016, Holleran offered a course on “How to Approach the Bible.” He said:

You absolutely can not go back to any text in the Hebrew Scriptures and say this is valid now, including all the stuff against gays or whatever it is. Because it’s not the way to read the Bible.

Again, James Martin says the same:

All these Bible passages that people throw at you; I think really need to be understood in their historical context. I mean Leviticus and Deuteronomy and even the stuff from the New Testament where Paul talks about it once or twice, has to be understood in their historical context…certainly in Old Testament times, they didn’t understand the phenomena of homosexuality and bisexuality as we do today.

From June 29th to July 1, 2018, Holleran will offer a retreat at the Copper Beech Institute entitled: Buddha & Christ: Their Life & Destiny. According to the description for the retreat:

Both Buddhism and Christianity begin with actual historical figures. Come and explore their lives and the fascinating points of comparison. Also, see how their followers treated the two in succeeding centuries, and how they might collaborate today to uplift the consciousness of humanity — and your own!

In 2009, Holleran took part in a Zen ceremony in which he “received Dharma Transmission as a Sensei in the White Plum Asanga of the Zen tradition” from Roshi Robert Kennedy, S.J. – Kennedy is a professor emeritus at Saint Peter’s University in New Jersey.

Please contact the Archdiocese of New York:

Cardinal Timothy Dolan Phone: 212-371-1000

1011 First Ave New York, NY 10022

[Elsie]

It is not the official name of the Catholic Church.

HMMMmmm...

the Catechism of the Catholic Church states...

881 The Lord made Simon alone, whom he named Peter, the “rock” of his Church. He gave him the keys of his Church and instituted him shepherd of the whole flock. “The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of apostles united to its head.” This pastoral office of Peter and the other apostles belongs to the Church’s very foundation and is continued by the bishops under the primacy of the Pope.

882 The Pope, Bishop of Rome and Peter’s successor, “is the perpetual and visible source and foundation of the unity both of the bishops and of the whole company of the faithful.” “For the Roman Pontiff, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered.”

883 “The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.” As such, this college has “supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff.”

[Elsie]

 

 

Is Peter the 'rock'?

 

---

NIV Matthew 4:18-19
 18.  As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
 19.  "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."

 

NIV Matthew 8:14
  When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.

 

NIV Matthew 10:1-2
 1.  He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil  spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
 2.  These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;

 

NIV Matthew 14:28-31
 28.  "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
 29.  "Come," he said.   Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
 30.  But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
 31.  Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"

 

NIV Matthew 15:13-16
 13.  He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
 14.  Leave them; they are blind guides.  If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
 15.  Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
 16.  "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

 

---

As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'

BEFORE the following verses came along.....

---

NIV Matthew 16:13-18
 13.  When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
 14.  They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
 15.  "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
 16.  Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,  the Son of the living God."
 17.  Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
 18.  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades  will not overcome it.

 19.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be  bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

---

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
   and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

 

NIV Luke 6:48
   He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.

 

NIV Romans 9:33
  As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

 

 

 

NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
 4.  As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--
 5.  you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
 6.  For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
 7.  Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, "
 8.  and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

---

But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS???

---

 

NIV Genesis 49:24-25
 24.  But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
 25.  because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty,  who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb.

 

NIV Numbers 20:8
   "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
  He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
   Jeshurun  grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
  You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
 30.  How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
 31.  For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.

 

NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
  "There is no one holy  like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.

 

NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
 2.  He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
 3.  my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn  of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me.

 

NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
  For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

 

NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
  "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!

 

NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
 3.  The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
 4.  he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'

 

NIV Psalms 18:2
  The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn  of my salvation, my stronghold.

 

NIV Psalms 18:31
   For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

 

NIV Psalms 18:46
  The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!

 

NIV Psalms 19:14
   May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

 

NIV Psalms 28:1

   To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.

 

NIV Psalms 31:2-3
 2.  Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
 3.  Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.

 

NIV Psalms 42:9
   I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"

 

NIV Psalms 62:2
   He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.

 

NIV Psalms 62:6
   He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.

 

NIV Psalms 62:7
   My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.

 

NIV Psalms 71:3
   Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.

 

NIV Psalms 78:35
   They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.

 

NIV Psalms 89:26
   He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'

 

NIV Psalms 92:14-15
 14.  They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green,
 15.  proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."

 

NIV Psalms 95:1
   Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

 

NIV Psalms 144:1
   Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

 

NIV Isaiah 17:10
   You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

 

NIV Isaiah 26:4
   Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.

 

NIV Isaiah 30:29
 And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.

 

NIV Isaiah 44:8
   Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." 

 

NIV Habakkuk 1:12
   O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.

---

.....No other rock.............

 

And now you know the Biblical position!

 

Is Peter the 'rock'?

 

---

NIV Matthew 4:18-19
 18.  As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew. They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen.
 19.  "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will make you fishers of men."

 

NIV Matthew 8:14
  When Jesus came into Peter's house, he saw Peter's mother-in-law lying in bed with a fever.

 

NIV Matthew 10:1-2
 1.  He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil  spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
 2.  These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John;

 

NIV Matthew 14:28-31
 28.  "Lord, if it's you," Peter replied, "tell me to come to you on the water."
 29.  "Come," he said.   Then Peter got down out of the boat, walked on the water and came toward Jesus.
 30.  But when he saw the wind, he was afraid and, beginning to sink, cried out, "Lord, save me!"
 31.  Immediately Jesus reached out his hand and caught him. "You of little faith," he said, "why did you doubt?"

 

NIV Matthew 15:13-16
 13.  He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.
 14.  Leave them; they are blind guides.  If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."
 15.  Peter said, "Explain the parable to us."
 16.  "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

 

---

As you can see, Simon was already known as 'Peter'

BEFORE the following verses came along.....

---

NIV Matthew 16:13-18
 13.  When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
 14.  They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
 15.  "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
 16.  Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,  the Son of the living God."
 17.  Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
 18.  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades  will not overcome it.

 19.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be  bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

---

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:4
   and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

 

NIV Luke 6:48
   He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.

 

NIV Romans 9:33
  As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

 

 

 

NIV 1 Peter 2:4-8
 4.  As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--
 5.  you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
 6.  For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."
 7.  Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone, "
 8.  and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.

---

But, since there WAS no NT at the time Christ spoke to Peter, just what DID Peter and the rest of the Disciples know about ROCKS???

---

 

NIV Genesis 49:24-25
 24.  But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
 25.  because of your father's God, who helps you, because of the Almighty,  who blesses you with blessings of the heavens above, blessings of the deep that lies below, blessings of the breast and womb.

 

NIV Numbers 20:8
   "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:4
  He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:15
   Jeshurun  grew fat and kicked; filled with food, he became heavy and sleek. He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Savior.

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:18
  You deserted the Rock, who fathered you; you forgot the God who gave you birth.

 

NIV Deuteronomy 32:30-31
 30.  How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless the LORD had given them up?
 31.  For their rock is not like our Rock, as even our enemies concede.

 

NIV 1 Samuel 2:2
  "There is no one holy  like the LORD; there is no one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.

 

NIV 2 Samuel 22:2-3
 2.  He said: "The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer;
 3.  my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge, my shield and the horn  of my salvation. He is my stronghold, my refuge and my savior-- from violent men you save me.

 

NIV 2 Samuel 22:32
  For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

 

NIV 2 Samuel 22:47
  "The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God, the Rock, my Savior!

 

NIV 2 Samuel 23:3-4
 3.  The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me: `When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
 4.  he is like the light of morning at sunrise on a cloudless morning, like the brightness after rain that brings the grass from the earth.'

 

NIV Psalms 18:2
  The LORD is my rock, my fortress and my deliverer; my God is my rock, in whom I take refuge. He is my shield and the horn  of my salvation, my stronghold.

 

NIV Psalms 18:31
   For who is God besides the LORD? And who is the Rock except our God?

 

NIV Psalms 18:46
  The LORD lives! Praise be to my Rock! Exalted be God my Savior!

 

NIV Psalms 19:14
   May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.

 

NIV Psalms 28:1

   To you I call, O LORD my Rock; do not turn a deaf ear to me. For if you remain silent, I will be like those who have gone down to the pit.

 

NIV Psalms 31:2-3
 2.  Turn your ear to me, come quickly to my rescue; be my rock of refuge, a strong fortress to save me.
 3.  Since you are my rock and my fortress, for the sake of your name lead and guide me.

 

NIV Psalms 42:9
   I say to God my Rock, "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"

 

NIV Psalms 62:2
   He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will never be shaken.

 

NIV Psalms 62:6
   He alone is my rock and my salvation; he is my fortress, I will not be shaken.

 

NIV Psalms 62:7
   My salvation and my honor depend on God ; he is my mighty rock, my refuge.

 

NIV Psalms 71:3
   Be my rock of refuge, to which I can always go; give the command to save me, for you are my rock and my fortress.

 

NIV Psalms 78:35
   They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer.

 

NIV Psalms 89:26
   He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Savior.'

 

NIV Psalms 92:14-15
 14.  They will still bear fruit in old age, they will stay fresh and green,
 15.  proclaiming, "The LORD is upright; he is my Rock, and there is no wickedness in him."

 

NIV Psalms 95:1
   Come, let us sing for joy to the LORD; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.

 

NIV Psalms 144:1
   Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.

 

NIV Isaiah 17:10
   You have forgotten God your Savior; you have not remembered the Rock, your fortress.

 

NIV Isaiah 26:4
   Trust in the LORD forever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal.

 

NIV Isaiah 30:29
 And you will sing as on the night you celebrate a holy festival; your hearts will rejoice as when people go up with flutes to the mountain of the LORD, to the Rock of Israel.

 

NIV Isaiah 44:8
   Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one." 

 

NIV Habakkuk 1:12
   O LORD, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy One, we will not die. O LORD, you have appointed them to execute judgment; O Rock, you have ordained them to punish.

---

.....No other rock.............

 

And now you know the Biblical position!

[metmom]

Also please document the “Roman Church” or acknowledge that this is just a protestant nickname.

Then you need to tell that to these Catholic churches that put it on their signs.

FWIW, In Buffalo it's very common to use the term *Roman Catholic*. The reason for that is that there is a large Ukrainian population and quite a number of Ukrainian Catholics and a couple large Ukrainian Catholic churches.

And I can guarantee you, the Ukrainian Catholics know that the Roman rite does not consider the Ukrainian rite to be as good a Catholic as the Roman rite.

It sure seems that the Roman Catholic church does a good job at alienating those who do not toe the party line - EXACTLY.

[metmom]

the Catholic church fought abortion...

Every Christian I know is opposed to abortion and many churches are very outspoken about it. Just because the MSM doesn't publicize it, doesn't mean it's not happening.

they fought against homosexuality..

See abortion.

they fought against homosexuality...

Except in their priests.

they fought against gays adopting...

See abortion.

they fought against divorce...

The non-church sanctioned kind, that is.

But they'll willingly give you a church sanctioned divorce for enough money.

They just relabel it and repackage is and tell you it's not a sin to break your marriage vows after all, and best yet, you still get to take communion.

I've heard many non-Catholic churches preach and teach against all the above things you mentioned. Not one of the many I have attended has ever condoned any of it.

The Catholic church is not the sole bastion of morality in this country. Hardly.....

[metmom]

lets not pretend that Baptists and Lutherans and Mormon "leaders" have not raped children....

I'm not *pretending* anything.

And I've stated before, nobody is condemning the church for the fact that some got through and it happened.

The Roman Catholic church stands condemned for HOW THEY HANDLED IT.

Moving the offending priests around from parish to parish for fresh victims, ordering people to not talk about it, and failing to inform the new congregations of what they were doing, and allowing them to continue to serve as priests, is NOT the way to deal with the matter.

you can read about it every single day about some Christian minister doing just that...

Fine. Show me the proof.

Besides, when it does happen in non_Catholic circles, you frequently see the words *jail*, *charges*, *arrested*, and *resign*, associated with the matter.

[metmom]

So, by those comments, the EO, the Greek Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox, the Ukrainian Catholic, all are not saved since they are not ROMAN Catholic or in subjection to it.

[Mom MD]

You folks are the ones who are good at rewriting history and calling it equal to scripture.

[metmom]

Better yet, Paul tells us EXACTLY who *Petra*, the rock that the church is built on, is.

And it's Jesus, NOT Peter.

Peter – rock

Matthew 16:18 - http://bible.cc/matthew/16-18.htm

Jesus said that Peter was *petros*(masculine) and that on this *petra*(feminine) He would build His church.

Greek: 4074 Pétros (a masculine noun) – properly, a stone (pebble), such as a small rock found along a pathway. 4074 /Pétros (”small stone”) then stands in contrast to 4073 /pétra (”cliff, boulder,” Abbott-Smith).

“4074 (Pétros) is an isolated rock and 4073 (pétra) is a cliff” (TDNT, 3, 100). “4074 (Pétros) always means a stone . . . such as a man may throw, . . . versus 4073 (pétra), a projecting rock, cliff” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

4073 pétra (a feminine noun) – “a mass of connected rock,” which is distinct from 4074 (Pétros) which is “a detached stone or boulder” (A-S). 4073 (pétra) is a “solid or native rock, rising up through the earth” (Souter) – a huge mass of rock (a boulder), such as a projecting cliff.

4073 (petra) is “a projecting rock, cliff (feminine noun) . . . 4074 (petros, the masculine form) however is a stone . . . such as a man might throw” (S. Zodhiates, Dict).

It’s also a strange way to word the sentence that He would call Peter a rock and say that on this I will build my church instead of *on you* as would be grammatically correct in talking to a person.

There is no support from the original Greek that Peter was to be the rock on which Jesus said he would build His church. The nouns are not the same, one being masculine and the other being feminine. They denote different objects.

Also, here, Paul identifies who petra is, and that is Christ. This link takes you to the Greek.

http://biblehub.com/text/1_corinthians/10-4.htm

1 Corinthians 10:1-4 For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock (petra) that followed them, and the Rock (petra) was Christ.

http://biblehub.com/text/romans/9-33.htm

Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, as it is written,“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock (petra) of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

http://biblehub.com/text/1_peter/2-8.htm

1 Peter 2:1-8 So put away all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander. Like newborn infants, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up into salvation— if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is good.

As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For it stands in Scripture: “Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone, a cornerstone chosen and precious, and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”

So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,

“The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,”

and

“A stone of stumbling, and a rock (petra) of offense.”

They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

All occurrences of *petra* in the Greek.

http://biblehub.com/greek/strongs_4073.htm

[Mom MD]

People leave the Roman church every day to free themselves of heresy and man made roadblocks to salvation. They leave because they understand there is no righteousness beside Christ and all our works are powerless to save us. They leave because they understand that Mary is not divine and should not be an object of prayer worship or adoration. They leave because they realize idol worship is a sin. That’s for starters

Yes other denominations have their pedophiles and had actors. They are denounced defrocked and prosecuted not transferred to another unsuspecting parish where hopefully no one has heard of them

You Roman’s really need to get off your high horse and turn some of that criticism inward.

[Mom MD]

And in case you didn’t notice you don’t have to leave the Roman sect to have an abortion or get divorced. Plea to of Romans in good standing have had an abortion and even more think it’s ok and vote for it yet they are not purged from your little club. Case in point Nancy Pelosi. Don’t talk to me about abortion while she remains a member of the Roman Church in good standing

As for divorce do the Kennedys ring a bell? All Roman Catholics in good standing and more than a few divorces between them. As long as you have the money or influence to get an anullment your club will wink and pretend the marriage never happened

I suggest you do something about the forest growing in your own eye

[ealgeone]

When a Catholic says Catholic Church they mean Roman Catholic. They don’t like the name due to the negative associations with Roman Catholicism.

[boatbums]

Well then, it sounds like that you maybe a member of the Body of Christ - His Catholic Church which Jesus founded for our salvation.

Well, gee, thanks. I was raised in the Roman Catholic church until the Holy Spirit led me out from it and into a fellowship that taught the truth of the gospel - that salvation is by grace through faith and not by works. This is how I know I have eternal life and am now one of His sheep - an assurance NOT taught by Roman Catholicism. You, know, I think it is disingenuous for Roman Catholicism to use the adjective "catholic" - which initially meant the universal body of Christ - and presume they alone are exclusively THE church. Like I said, why limit the work of the Holy Spirit by elitest thinking? Here is the rest of what Paul said in Ephesians 3:10-21

His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord. In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. I ask you, therefore, not to be discouraged because of my sufferings for you, which are your glory.

For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God. Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

[boatbums]

It kinda irks me when Roman Catholics assert that they alone have exclusive rights to call themselves the “Catholic Church” (they even capitalize Church) and they get huffy when anyone notes they don’t OWN the label. That word “catholic” was a Latin term that meant “universal”, so at one time it was understood that talking about the catholic church was referring to the whole of the Christian believers united in the true faith of Jesus Christ. According to some Roman Catholic teaching, only they can validly call themselves the Church! Other Christian assemblies are smugly called “ecclesial communities” and not churches! Such inanity when “ecclesia” (or assembly) was where the term “church” was derived.

[RetiredArmy]

Absolute, absolutely the biggest idiots on the globe. Who gave these fools their licenses, the pope? Just keep hoping that purgatory is a real place guys because you are going to need it. These fools do not know the same Jesus Christ that I know. How is it that the Creator God of heaven and earth and everything in-between, did not know anything about homos??? Yeah, guys, He knew. He said if they did not repent of their sins, just like all of us, they were headed straight to hell, don’t stop at purgatory, cause it don’t exist.

[boatbums]

I believe one of the characteristics of a cult, is that it’s members claim that their “religion,” is the only one, and they, with their haughty, self righteousness, have a lock on the truth. There are quite a few “religions” that claim to be the only true church. There are 3 of them, right here, where I live, all claiming, they are the ONLY true church. I don’t accept ANY of them.

Do you notice that on these threads very few non-Catholics (almost NONE) assert that everyone MUST be their flavor of Christian in order to be saved? Indeed, it IS the cults which do this. Roman Catholicism at one time adamantly declared no one could be saved UNLESS they were Roman Catholics - and even then, one had to be in a "state of grace". So many hoops!

[metmom]

And if you get baptized anywhere, you are Roman Catholic, whether you like it or not.

What control freaks......

[Luircin]

All of this, far as I can see, comes from the ‘One True Church’ vanity.

Trying to cover up pedos? If they became known, people might leave the ‘One True Church.’ Can’t have that, so let’s just move them around!

When they DO become known, self-introspection is impossible, because One True Church, so they CAN’T be wrong by definition! So it must happen everywhere else instead.

And of course, the fact that they’re being taught that Protestant/Evangelical Christians are the devil, well... When their Pope is anti-Christian and pro-Communist, they HAVE to be the One True Church, so IT’S ALL THE PROTESTANTS’ FAULT REEEEEEEEEE.

Now, if the people around here that we’ve clashed with just defended their beliefs, I’d be fine with that. I’m sure I’d be fighting with them quite a bit too, but at least it’d be over something worthwhile.

The problem that I personally have is when they try to shift the blame of THEIR problems onto US.

[boatbums]

lets also be honest about why people leave the Catholic church...they want a divorce...they want an abortion...they don't want any stinking rules telling them how to live their lives..

Yes, let's be honest. I left the Roman Catholic church at 16 years old, I wasn't looking for a divorce or an abortion nor did the "stinking rules" bother me. Instead, I was seeking to know the truth about the Christian faith - something that needled me from childhood was missing in the Catholicism I was born into. I prayed to God to reveal what was true. Through a series of events, I found myself in a Sunday school class of a Southern Baptist church my grandparents attended. The teacher put a Bible in my hands and asked me to read John 10:27-30. It said:

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

A light turned on in my soul and I knew I was hearing the truth I had asked God to show me. Jesus said He GIVES me eternal life and I will NEVER perish or be plucked from His hands. I knew then and there that I could not go back to the Catholicism I was raised in. Nobody told me to do that. I believe it was the Holy Spirit who led me to the truth. So, no, I left the Catholic church because I realized it did not teach the truth. I have never regretted that decision.

[metmom]

lets also be honest about why people leave the Catholic church...they want a divorce...they want an abortion...they don't want any stinking rules telling them how to live their lives..

I've been outright accused of many false things both on the public forum and by FReepamail, like how I left the Catholic church because of my (alleged) divorce and how I didn't want moral responsibility.

Well, when I got saved, I was still 8 years from getting married ever.

So I get saved and went back to attending the Catholic church I was raised in.

But the more I read the Bible, the greater disparity I saw between what the Bible clearly states and what Catholicism teaches.

I continued to go for several months, however, in spite of that cause I recognized that going to church was something I should/needed to do.

Then a friend invited me to a local Evangelical church and I finally went.

Could not believe the difference. A church where the Bible was actually taught and people actually cared if you were there or not and the pastor knew your name.

I vacillated between the two for a few months and finally made the break with the Catholic church, not looking back.

And it wasn't because of morals or adultery, or divorce, as I've been very nastily accused of (the FReepmails were something else, I tell you) but because the Catholic church does not teach what the Word of God states.

It was strictly all the extra nonsense they have added over the years.

And it wasn't because of thinking the rules were too hard. The rules that Catholicism added to God's word are useless. They do nothing to grant or further salvation.

But Catholics want nothing more than to explain away what they can't face, that it is the Catholicism itself that's the problem.

[Mom MD]

And that is precisely why we call them the Roman church. The rest of Christendom understands that the little c catholic church is the universal church of all believers. They however think it pertains only to their group hence the addition of Roman to differentiate between the two