WHY "IN LIKE MANNER" OF ACTS 1 DOES NOT PREDICT A BODILY RETURN OF CHRIST

Prophecy Questions Blog ^ | June 15, 2017 | Charles Meek

[grumpa]

“And when He had said these things, as they were looking on, He was taken up [Greek EPAIRO], and a CLOUD received Him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as He went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven?’ This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come IN LIKE MANNER [Greek HOS TROPOS] as you saw him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9-11)

This passage is one that futurists hold up to preterists to show that the Second Coming has not yet happened. “What,“ they say, “are you nuts? If Jesus had come in AD 70, everyone would have seen Him.”

As I began studying eschatology seriously over 15 years ago, it became increasingly obvious that my futurist assumptions about the last days and Second Coming could not hold up to the test of Scripture. But my passion is to teach what the Bible teaches, even if it conflicts with my presuppositions or denominational traditions.

I considered every passage in the Old and New Testaments about eschatology and concluded that the popular views are mostly regurgitations from denominational echo chambers, rather than from Scripture. My previous assumptions radically failed to consider Old Testament apocalyptic language, as well as the over 100 prophetic imminence statements in the New Testament. The preterist arguments persuaded me that Jesus was never claimed to return in his physical body, but rather in divine judgment just like Yahweh in the Old Testament. I became convinced that the preterist view is the only view of eschatology that could hold up to Scripture.

In case you are not familiar with the preterist view, there are dozens of passages that clearly teach that the culmination of the biblical “last days” and the “Second Coming” would happen while some of those living in the first century were still alive. Preterists believe that Jesus and the biblical writers were telling the truth about the timing of these things, and that these passages were fulfilled by Jesus’ non-bodily PRESENCE IN JUDGMENT against Old Covenant Israel in AD 70.

As I continued to study, I considered every objection I could find against the preterist view. I now see that my own previous objections as a futurist were grounded in ignorance, presupposition, and wishful thinking. Looking back, it still amazes me what hoops I went through to explain away, especially, the imminence passages. Wanting to cling to the popular views of prophecy, I had become skilled at Scripture-twisting.

Indeed, at first glance, it seems clear in Acts 1:9-11 that Jesus was predicted to return to earth literally, bodily—in (or on) a literal cloud. Unlike almost all other Second Coming passages, there is no time-constraint on its fulfillment, so it could still be a future event. However, to properly interpret this passage we must reconcile it with other passages about the Parousia (“Second Coming”). Let me offer ten points of exegesis of this passage about why it does not predict a literal, bodily Second Coming. . . .

In this article, I describe why the futurist view fails on critical analysis:

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=D3BD424B0B25B83F!16252&ithint=file%2cdocx&app=Word&authkey=!AO7aCIxpe1YGP6Q

[Bayard]

>>>The only reason why you can’t accept that is because Christ with a ressurected body conflicts with homoousis (sp?) of the Nicene Creed.<<<

Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed of 381 does not imply in any way that Jesus was not fully man and did not rise bodily (ἀναστάντα) "anastánta." The implied sense is of one who rises again from rest.

No where in the Creed is there even implied attempt to advocate Adoptionism or any flavor of Monarchism. Also your word Homoousis doesn't imply that Jesus was not fully man. The rest of the creed would be unintelligible otherwise.

[Tax-chick]

Am I wrong?

dunno.

[vladimir998]

“In like manner = from the ground, up.”

No. In like manner would mean in a miraculous way, in glory. It does not mean ONLY from the ground up. When He returns, “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory.” Mark 13:26

And, “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matthew 24:30-31)

Elijah did not return as John the Baptist. God does not use reincarnation. Remember, even Jesus was said to be Elijah come back (and He wasn’t) in Matthew 16. John had a spirit and power like Elijah’s (Luke 1:17) but he was not Elijah. John and Elijah dressed alike (2 Kings 1:8; Mathew 3:4) and preached alike (1 Kings 17,18).

When Jesus said John was Elijah He meant it in type (typology) (see Matthew 11:11-14). This is shown by the fact that John himself said he was NOT Elijah (John 1:21).

[Ezekiel]

It does not mean ONLY from the ground up.

I didn't make a claim of "only", so no contradiction.

John said he wasn't Elijah, yet Jesus said John was Elijah ("if you will receive it"). Both statements are true, hence the spirit and power of Elijah, not the bodily Elijah that was the same taken up in a whirlwind. John was a new baby whose birth narrative is documented in the NT.

So there's the pattern. It explains why people will be caught unawares.

[60Gunner]

Who is Charles Meek and why should I give a rat's behind about what he thinks Christ will do?

I get my insight, vision, and revelation from the Wellspring of it all- God Himself, through the revelation of his word, and His Holy Spirit.

Theologians are like public toilets. You can find one on every corner, and they're usually full of crap.

[impactplayer]

Very well said - thank you! Our church has studied Daniel, Hebrews, and Rev. This is the only way they can be put together in a rational approach that is true to scripture.

[webstersII]

Great post. The only consistent End-Times theology that is consistent with the Old and New Testament is preterism. Everything else is just Scripture twisting.

The goofy Hal Lindsey prophecy books date from 40+ years ago and the original ideas he pulled from are mid-18th century. Ever since the ideas were presented they have talked of a 2nd Coming which is imminent. How long does it have to go before they are wrong?

Many people want to believe that Jesus is coming back to fix this world and make everything right. But the event they are looking for happened in 70 AD.

Jesus didn’t leave us alone. He gave us everything we need for life and Godliness.

[Wilderness Conservative]

If he does return I hope he's packing.

http://www.atheistmessiah.com/march_against_Bush.JPG

[tjd1454]

A couple of your fellows knocked on my door the other day. We had a respectful chat. I informed them in a friendly way that I had spoken with numerous of their coreligionists through the years, and suggested they really didn’t want to get started with a “Bible study” with me, several degrees in theology (including earned Ph.D), college-level teaching, etc.

They wisely backed away, and we parted most congenially. You see, a religion founded by a nineteenth-century serial adulterer who admittedly was terrified by demonic spirits who were deceiving him (yes, Google it) can never hope to supplant Biblical Christianity.

[tjd1454]

BTW the Nicene Creed is one of the most brilliant summaries of Christian beliefs ever composed, far surpassing the babblings of some nineteenth-century hack from rural New York.

[nonsporting]

In like manner = from the ground, up.

One doesn't have to resort to Greek to figure out what this means. He left. He'll return. One doesn't return "from the ground up". That would be another "taking up/departing".

What is similar about his departing and return is the manner -- in clouds. Matthew 24 paints the clearest picture.

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:30)

We use scripture to explain scripture, not man's convoluted logic.

[Elsie]

As an LDS Non-Creed Christian, it is clear that the only reason why you would try to impose this view on the scriptures is to twist them to conform with the Nicene Creed.

Now that is about as untrue as it gets.

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Here is MORMONism's own creed:

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Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

 

 

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
   
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
   
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
    
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
    
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

 

[Elsie]

As an LDS Non-Creed Christian, it is clear that the only reason why you would try to impose this view on the scriptures is to twist them to conform with the Nicene Creed.

.

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Please; teppe; point out any ERROR that you've been taught exists in this 'creed'.

 

It would really prove the superiority of Mormonism!

 

 

The Nicene Creed was originally written in Greek. Its principal liturgical use is in the context of the Eucharist in the West and in the context of both baptism and the Eucharist in the East. A modern English version of the text is as follows:

1. I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

2. I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages.

3. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; through him all things were made.

4. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

5. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered death and was buried, and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures.

6. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

7. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.

8. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.

9. I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

10. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come.

Amen.

[Elsie]

There’s no where that says that he ditched his body.

MORMONism claims that the FATHER has a physical body; too.

I wonder why HE never seems to show up except once in a grove?

[Elsie]

Am I wrong?

Let's look it up!

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Zechariah 14:3-5

 

 

3 Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle.

4 In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

5 You will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him!

 

I see no mention of a river.

[Elsie]

...call up the Mormon Missionaries for a chat!

 

 

Professor Robert Millet        teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004  http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/  <-- Complete and uneditted

 

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If the above link does NOT function; try THIS one.   Click on the second image.

 

http://mormontruthnews.blogspot.com/2006/10/robert-millet-former-dean-of-religious_01.html

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Timeline...    Subject...

 

0:59           "Anti-Mormons..."

1:16           "ATTACK the faith you have..."

2:02           "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."

3:57           "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."

 

 

 

 

 

[Ezekiel]

One doesn't return "from the ground up".

In like manner IS from earth to heaven. It's as plain as it gets. The burning bush was a paradox, but Moses chose to look closer. It was when God saw that Moses turned aside to see, that God spoke to him out of the bush. That's in the plain text. The bush wasn't just yapping at Moses as he walked by. He had to have a desire to see why the bush was not consumed, before one word came out of it.

John the Baptist [whose birth narrative is documented in the NT] was Elijah, if you will receive it, because John wasn't Elijah bodily.

It's a blueprint. Elijah truly comes first to restore all things. Patterns, plans, blueprints come first.

The two men were correcting those who were gazing up. And as far as the son of man returning in the clouds, well there was Elijah (as Elijah) again (in the Transfiguration).

The text is what it is, much more open and obvious than people realize. Shockingly so.

Belshazzar had no clue what the writing meant, and neither did any of his advisors. Daniel was brought in to explain. Daniel's explanation was a history lesson, followed up by its logical conclusion. If only those folks had been in any way observant for all that time. Even today that simple message [of observance] sails right by, causing history to repeat.

Daniel had some amazing powers of insight unlike anyone else in the kingdom, because he was apparently the only one paying attention.

It's like that.

[Lionheartusa1]

True believers in Christ need not see him in the flesh ,,, they know and feel his presence in their life every day .

[faucetman]

The CORRECT answer is “Nobody Knows”.

Myself, since I “can’t know”, I’ll just wait and see when and how it actually happens.

[delchiante]

quote-Ever since the ideas were presented they have talked of a 2nd Coming which is imminent. How long does it have to go before they are wrong?

webstersII, it was predicted we’d have ‘about 2,000 swine’ years in the scriptures..

the same ‘about 2,000’ cubits from the old testament- a measurement given for the distance Israel had to keep from the ark when they passed into the Promised Land.

Maybe not enough people saw or see that ‘about 2,000’ as a measurement of time. But in hindsight, it appears we have experienced ‘about 2,000 swine’ years since His resurrection.

But who keeps time like He does?
No one has lived 1,000 years so they’ve all died the same ‘day’ they were born.
If we accept a day is as 1,000 years as scriptures say.
By that timekeeping, Christ died 2 days ago.