Posted on 02/05/2017 3:05:14 PM PST by metmom
“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:14).
Though there is only one God, He exists in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
God is one, but He exists in three distinct Persons. We call this the Trinity, a contraction of “tri-unity,” meaning “three in one.” The word Trinity doesn’t appear in the Bible, but God’s existence as three Persons in one God is clear from Scripture.
Old Testament evidence of God’s plurality can be found in the very first verse: “In the beginning God . . .” (Gen. 1:1). The Hebrew word used for God is Elohim, which is a plural noun. Isaiah 42:1 speaks of the Messiah: “Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations.” The Messiah says in Isaiah 48:16, “The Lord God has sent Me, and His Spirit.”
The New Testament is more explicit about God’s triune nature. After Jesus’ baptism, the Spirit of God descended upon Him as a dove, and the Father said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased” (Matt. 3:17). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are together in the same scene.
Jesus says, “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; that is the Spirit of truth” (John 14:16-17). Paul closes 2 Corinthians by saying, “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all” (13:14). Peter declares that believers are chosen “according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:2).
So God is one, but God is three. This is a profound mystery that no human illustration can adequately describe and no scientific explanation can prove. The Trinity is something we have to take on faith, because God has taught it in Scripture.
Suggestions for Prayer
Praise God that He is so far above our finite understanding, yet has chosen to reveal Himself to us.
For Further Study
Read John 14—16.
What does Jesus teach about His relationship with the Father and the Spirit? What do you learn here about the different functions or ministries of each member of the Trinity?
“Are you also a member of the United Church of Christ?” Should be:
“Are you also a member of the United Church of God?”
Holy means set apart by God for a purpose. Christians are "holy". We are set apart by God for a purpose.
The term "holy spirit" is an english description of a force that is emanating from God. It can be felt and it has an impact but we are unable to comprehend it fully because as humans we are incapable of comprehending "spirit"...whatever it is.
Since there is not a way to comprehend God...who is made of "spirit"....a term is used to explain this influence. The term used in greek for spirit is "pneuma" which literally means a wind, breathe or breeze. In other words something that can be felt and that can have an effect on things but yet can't be seen.
This set aside spirit has a purpose. In this case it's a bit of God that resides in Christians. A portion of his spirit. It's purpose, the purpose of God, is to change and transform us...to make us grow in love...God's character...which leads to faith and hope.
Where we differ is that I believe that the holy spirit is NOT another being in Godhead of three. When the term holy spirit is used it is the influence of NONE other then God in our lives. Correct me if I'm wrong but you think there is a separate being other then the father and son, a being called "the holy spirit". Is that correct?
Why Don’t You Capitalize the Pronouns Referring to God in Your Books?
The old practice of capitalizing pronouns of deity has been done in very few Bible translations historically, and was abandoned by most Christian publishers years ago. I continued to do it for years but it created inconsistencies since I would capitalize pronouns of deity, then quote Scripture that didn’t. The inconsistency stood out. The only alternative would be to quote from NASB or NKJV, both of which capitalize pronouns of deity, but neither of which is my preference for purposes of clarity.
On our website and blog, and on social media, we usually capitalize pronouns referring to deity. I never would have stopped doing it in my books if my publishers hadn’t changed their policy. (EPM has chosen to capitalize the pronouns in our self-published books.) I think there’s not really a big down side. It not only shows reverence, but sometimes increases clarity—as in “Jesus and Peter were talking, and then suddenly He said to him, ‘Look out.’” But where it’s not possible, i.e. in my books with other publishers, I’ve gone with their policy.
Of course, I would never agree to Christ or God not being capitalized. I have had to fight to get Heaven capitalized in my books, arguing that it is a proper noun, and just as real a place as Saturn or France. I argue the same for capitalizing the New Earth—if we capitalize New England, why not the redeemed creation that Scripture calls the “New Earth”? But notice that while Heaven is capitalized (since it is an actual place), I don’t capitalize There or It when referring to Heaven, e.g. “If we go There” or “…It is a happy place!” Only the actual word Heaven is capitalized, and industry standard is similar with pronouns referring to deity.
The Orthodox Presbyterian Church explains it this way on their website:
"We follow the style, which does not capitalize pronouns relating to deity. This intends no disrespect to God; it is the usage of the historic English Bibles: Wyclif (1380), Tyndale (1534), Cranmer (1539), Geneva (1557), Rheims (1582), and King James Version of KJV (1611). Moreover, it is the style followed by the New International Version (NIV) and English Standard Version (ESV), as well as by our denominational magazine New Horizons. The NASB and NKJV do capitalize pronouns relating to deity (introducing something which is not in the Greek or Hebrew, I might add)."
I also like this answer from Got Questions:
"Many people struggle with this question. Some, believing it shows reverence for God, capitalize all pronouns that refer to God. Others, believing the “rules” of English style should be followed, do not capitalize the deity pronouns. So, who is right? The answer is neither. It is neither right nor wrong to capitalize or not capitalize pronouns that refer to God. It is a matter of personal conviction, preference, and context. Some Bible translations capitalize pronouns referring to God, while others do not. In the original languages of the Bible, capitalizing pronouns referring to God was not an issue. In Hebrew, there was no such thing as upper-case and lower-case letters. There was simply an alphabet, no capital letters at all. In Greek, there were capital (upper-case) letters and lower-case letters. However, in all of the earliest copies of the Greek New Testament, the text is written in all capital letters. When God inspired the human authors of Scripture to write His Word, He did not lead them to give any special attention to pronouns that refer to Him. With that in mind, it follows that God is not offended if we do not capitalize pronouns that refer to Him. If you capitalize pronouns that refer to God to show reverence for His name, fantastic! Continue doing so. If you capitalize pronouns that refer to God to make it more clear who is being referred to, great! Continue doing so. If you are not capitalizing pronouns that refer to God because you believe proper English grammar/syntax/style should be followed, wonderful! Continue following your conviction. Again, this is not a right vs. wrong issue. Each of us must follow his/her own conviction and each of us should refrain from judging those who take a different viewpoint."
http://www.epm.org/resources/2012/Apr/6/why-dont-you-capitalize-he-when-referring-god/
As it is with the needs/variances to capitalize the pronouns, so it is with the need to invent a Trinity to meet the requirements of a monotheistic belief, which in itself fails to encompass the full truth of the Creator's world.
Likewise "spirit" is a gender neutral noun IN GREEK. But spirit when used in this sense CANNOT be male or female because it refers to something that is NOT male or female. God is NOT male and God is not female because God is NOT human. We are male and female as humans in large part because that's how we reproduce.
So HE or him or whatever is meaningless establishing the personhood of the holy spirit. It's completely translator discretion. And if you look at pronouns in different version of the bible that refer to the holy spirit you'll see the same passages referring to the holy holy spirit as "it" or "he" depending on the translation. Of "itself" or "himself".
Point 2: Applying characteristics to establish the personhood of the holy spirit is also problematic. I could just as easily say that the holy spirit is "poured" and is a gift (Acts 10:45). Both of these are non-personal attributes. The holy spirit can be quenched (1 Thessolonians 5:19)....another non-personal attribute. I could name more but the point is that terms applied to the holy spirit can't establish personhood.
The bigger point is that you are, whether you recognize it or not, is believing a 4th century construct and THEN going back and finding scriptures that you believe support that theory.
If I want to believe that UFO's are real I could go back and find many scriptures that "support" that. But it's not the truth.
The REAL test is what they believed in bible times. And in bible times it's undisputable. They DID NOT believe in the trinity theory. Jesus didn't. Peter didn't. Paul didn't. Moses didn't. Abraham didn't. Nobody did. NOBODY believe in that theory until the 4th century.
And on that note I’m bowing out here. I’m pretty sure I’ve stated my case multiple times. Thanks for the discourse and opportunity to study.
The Universe God has created has realms we are not fashioned to sense, in our present body, soul, spirit configuration. These realms exist and are real. Here, I should give you two axioms which benefit my reasoning:
Without Time, events do not occurWithout Space, things do not exist
These axioms are important for anything in the created Universe. God is greater than His creation, BUT He has chosen to also be in His creation, as The Holy Spirit and as Jesus. The dimensional complexity/simplicity of some realms beyond our sensing is not a barrier to God in His creation You will recall Jesus leaving the burial tomb without rolling away the stone and appearing in a locked and shuttered room without opening a window or door. There is also a scene in Daniel chapter 5 where a being not in the same realm as Palace party central reaches into the spacetime of the Babylonian king, to write upon the wall; just the hand is seen, but there was a being with spatial and temporal reality to which the hand was attached ... the being was in the Created Universe but the realm in which the being exists was not sensed by the partiers except where the being intersected the spacetime of the Palace room.
Now to answer your question. God IS greater than His creation, but The Father Almighty has aspects (named Jesus and The Holy Spirit) which/Who interact with the created Universe. These interactions do not diminish God but we sense them as two 'other' personas of The One God, the aspects where The Creator Almighty interacts with His Creation. As a Christian I am saved by the work of one aspect of God (His Holy Spirit interacting with my human spirit) BECAUSE of the work another aspect of the One God (Jesus) has performed on my behalf.
Conversation is enhanced by using the term 'person of' when referring to one or another of the Three Known aspects of The One God. But each does not diminish the Father Almighty as He is omnipotent, omnipresent, and greater than His Created Universe in which we and perhaps a huge variation of living beings exist in realms we were not fashioned to be able to sense.
That said, there is coming soon a moment of transformation, when the corruptible will put on incorruption, the mortal put on immortality, and we shall gather in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air while seven years of God progressively pouring out His wrath upon the Earth which rejected His Grace in Christ. ... BTW, the Universe we sense is so delicately balanced that a change in one parameter or another to a fraction of 1/10120 would end out living spacetime environment! Such a small change would make life as we know it impossible.
“They thought he was claiming to be God. That much is obvious. At least back then, they got really worked up about a man appearing to be committing blasphemy. Nowadays it’s become a tenet of the faith!”
We don’t have to take the word of the Pharisees. We can take the word of the apostles, confirmed by Jesus himself:
“13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Matt 16:13-17
Jesus also stated plainly that the Son and the Father are one:
“27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.” John 10:27-30
Jesus also states there that He is the one who gives eternal life. Only God can give eternal life, so Jesus’ claim there is unmistakeable:
“10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.” 1 John 5:10-12
Also please note that according to this Scripture, if you don’t accept the testimony God has given us about His Son, you make God out to be a liar. You cannot have one without the other. God is not a buffet from which you can pick and choose what you want to accept.
“Why DOES HaShem have so many names?”
God had many names, and appeared in many forms even in the Old Testament. So your own argument, if it were valid, would invalidate your own Scriptures.
Fortunately, your argument is not valid. God is not limited by your lack of understanding, He can appear as He wills, in as many forms as He wishes, and remains the one true God.
“MONOtheistic faiths (Judaism, Islam) have ONE indivisible, non-partitioned God.”
Islam has no God, only the devil and a false prophet who took his dictation. Judaism rejected their God, to follow after the invented doctrines of men instead. Thus God took away their Temple, their sacrifices, and their prophets, and scattered them to the corners of the earth, as he prophesied He would do as far back as Deuteronomy, in the Song of Moses:
“20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.
26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men:
27 Were it not that I feared the wrath of the enemy, lest their adversaries should behave themselves strangely, and lest they should say, Our hand is high, and the Lord hath not done all this.
28 For they are a nation void of counsel, neither is there any understanding in them.
29 O that they were wise, that they understood this, that they would consider their latter end!” Deut 32:20-29
The Good News is that God will redeem Israel nonetheless, because it is His will that the enemies of Israel not be glorified by their complete destruction, and His will cannot be thwarted by men.
Why would Jesus tell the apostles to baptize in the name of “Father, Son and Holy Spirit” then (Matt. 28:19)? That would be blasphemy unless the Holy Spirit is God as well. This is confirmation of the trinity from the lips of Christ Himself, debunking your claims that it did not come until centuries later.
You can believe Jesus and the trinity, or reject the trinity and reject the words of Jesus. Your choice.
Emphasizing what you have said, The risen Jesus' command to the eleven disciples was to baptize disciples made by them:
". . . το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος." (Textus Receptus).
το ονομα = The Name (in Hebrew this 'HaShem' = 'The Name' is substituted for יהוה , translated as 'Jehovah' in the KJV); and singular, not plural in the grammar of Hebrew or Koine Greek
του πατρος = of The Father (as a title of the paternal relationship to His created things, genitive possessive regarding the Name of God)
και = and (copulative conjunction)
του υιου = of The Son (another title, a second designation, that of the relationship of the Divine-become-human to The Father, possessive regarding the Name of God)
και = and (iterated copulative conjunction)
του αγιου πνευματος = of The Holy Spirit (yet a third title designating the relationship of the angelic phase of God, genitive-possessive regarding the Name of God)
=======
In Hebrew, HaShem, The Name (singular) of The God is 'יהוה'
In Koine, To Oνομα, The Name (singular) of The God is 'θεος'
=======
This command means to baptize 'in the Name of"; that is, to baptize "with all the delegated authority of" =======
Semantically, this is not different than to say that the compound of three atoms of the elements, identified by letters of the alphabet as H2O, can be described as 'ice' (solid phase ), as 'water' (liquid phase), and/or as 'steam' (gaseous phase); but they are all of the same substance, and can coexist in equilibrium each with the other two, yet each phase is physically distinct from the other phases.
In the same way, The Father is a distinct form of יהוה , Jesus of Nazareth The Son is a distinct form of יהוה , and The Spirit is a distinct form of יהוה ; but all are יהוה in substance. They are also named together as אלהים (Elohim), the Uniplural God. Thus, The LORD God -- יהוה אלהים -- is a Trinity, a Being with three facets, three Persons, but of One Continuous Substance. =======
We do not need to get into n-dimensional mathematics to explain this portion of the existence of The Almighty Creator God Who existed before space, time, and mass.
“We do not need to get into n-dimensional mathematics to explain this portion of the existence of The Almighty Creator God Who existed before space, time, and mass.”
Exactly. God can’t be contained by any number of dimensions, because He created them all. Before they were, He was.
Amen! HIS name is I AM.
By using the REAL TEST of what was believed in Bible times, you cannot possibly claim nobody believed in the Trinity until the 4th century. You have to ignore ALL the supporting Scripture as well as the writings of Christian leaders prior to then upon which the Nicean Creed - which formalized the definition of the Trinity in a succinct manner - was based on. C'mon...this was not something a group of drunks invented to fool Christians! And I don't just believe a "4th century construct", I believe because God revealed its truth in His word. We are composed of body, soul and spirit - three, yet still one person. We were created in the image of God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit - three, yet still one God.
I'm done arguing with you as well. I stated why I believe in the Trinity and you said why you don't. Each person should make up his/her mind based upon the evidence and as God leads them.
Re: capitalization of pronouns...I don't care.
As for your last sentence...Christians didn't "invent" a Trinity in order to pull off their claim to be monotheistic, they developed the defining of it to show that this was revealed in God's word repeatedly. Scripture says the Lord God (Jehovah/Hashem/etc.) is the ONLY true God and besides him, there is no other God/Savior. The Father is God/Savior/Creator. Jesus/Son of God, Scripture says, is the Savior/Redeemer, the creator of everything, God with us. It also says the Holy Spirit is God. So, since we believe there are not three gods, but only ONE God, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit must all be the parts of the "Godhead". We really are impotent with fallible minds trying to comprehend the infinite God. That is why it must be taken by faith - because it is unmistakable that God HAS revealed this truth about himself regardless whether we understand it or not. Some people accuse Christians of copping out by saying it's a mystery we accept by faith, but it really is NOT a cop out. It's the truth that we take on faith just like a great many other things about God we can't fully understand.
Moses AT LEAST 'believed' in the Binity 'theory'...
Time: something that was invented so that everything didn't happen at once.
Space: something that was invented so that everything doesn't happen at the same place.
And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Gen 1:2)
Which leads us to...
As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18, note the following bishops promise in the profession of faith of Vatican 1:
• Basil of Seleucia, Oratio 25:
'You are Christ, Son of the living God.'...Now Christ called this confession a rock, and he named the one who confessed it 'Peter,' perceiving the appellation which was suitable to the author of this confession. For this is the solemn rock of religion, this the basis of salvation, this the wall of faith and the foundation of truth: 'For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Christ Jesus.' To whom be glory and power forever. — Oratio XXV.4, M.P.G., Vol. 85, Col. 296-297.
• Bede, Matthaei Evangelium Expositio, 3:
You are Peter and on this rock from which you have taken your name, that is, on myself, I will build my Church, upon that perfection of faith which you confessed I will build my Church by whose society of confession should anyone deviate although in himself he seems to do great things he does not belong to the building of my Church...Metaphorically it is said to him on this rock, that is, the Saviour which you confessed, the Church is to be built, who granted participation to the faithful confessor of his name. — 80Homily 23, M.P.L., Vol. 94, Col. 260. Cited by Karlfried Froehlich, Formen, Footnote #204, p. 156 [unable to verify by me].
• Cassiodorus, Psalm 45.5:
'It will not be moved' is said about the Church to which alone that promise has been given: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it.' For the Church cannot be moved because it is known to have been founded on that most solid rock, namely, Christ the Lord. — Expositions in the Psalms, Volume 1; Volume 51, Psalm 45.5, p. 455
• Chrysostom (John) [who affirmed Peter was a rock, but here not the rock in Mt. 16:18]:
Therefore He added this, 'And I say unto thee, Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession. — Chrysostom, Homilies on the Gospel of Saint Matthew, Homily LIIl; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf110.iii.LII.html)
• Cyril of Alexandria:
When [Peter] wisely and blamelessly confessed his faith to Jesus saying, 'You are Christ, Son of the living God,' Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple.”. — Cyril Commentary on Isaiah 4.2.
• Origen, Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII):
“For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, 1 Corinthians 10:4 and upon every such rock is built every word of the church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.'
“For all bear the surname ‘rock’ who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters.” — Commentary on the Gospel of Matthew (Book XII), sect. 10,11 ( http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/101612.htm)
• Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II): Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter's mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God. On it we can base an answer to every objection with which perverted ingenuity or embittered treachery may assail the truth."-- (Hilary of Potier, On the Trinity (Book II), para 23; Philip Schaff, editor, The Nicene & Post Nicene Fathers Series 2, Vol 9.
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