Posted on 05/24/2016 6:49:46 AM PDT by Salvation
Many of you know that I write the Question and Answer column for Our Sunday Visitor. Given the celebration of Trinity Sunday this past Sunday, I thought I might reproduce here on the blog a question/answer regarding the Trinity. It is a fairly common question; perhaps you have it, too. Remember that my answers in the column are required to be brief.
We read in a recent Sunday Gospel (May 1, 2016) that Jesus says that the Father is greater than He (Jn 14:28). Since we are all taught that each Divine Person of the Blessed Trinity fully possesses the nature of God, equally to be adored and glorified, what did Jesus mean by such a statement?” – Dick Smith, Carrolton, TX.
Theologically, Jesus means that the Father is the eternal source in the Trinity. All three persons of the Trinity are co-eternal, co-equal, and equally divine. But the Father is the Principium Deitatis (the Source in the Deity).
Hence, Jesus proceeds from the Father from all eternity. He is eternally begotten of the Father. In effect, Jesus is saying, “I delight that the Father is the eternal principle or source of my being, even though I have no origin in time.”
Devotionally, Jesus is saying that He always does what pleases His Father. Jesus loves His Father; He’s crazy about Him. He is always talking about Him and pointing to Him. By calling the Father greater, He says (in effect), “I look to my Father for everything. I do what I see Him doing (Jn 5:19) and what I know pleases Him (Jn 5:30). His will and mine are one. What I will to do proceeds from Him. I do what I know accords with His will.”
So although the members of the Trinity are all equal in dignity, there are processions in the Trinity, such that the Father is the source, the Son eternally proceeds from Him (Jn 8:42), and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principal (Jn 15:26).
St Thomas speaks poetically of the Trinity as follows:
Genitori, Genitoque … Procedenti ab utroque … compar sit laudautio
(To the One Who Begets, and to the Begotton One, and to the One who proceeds from them both, be equal praise.)
The Athanasian Creed says the following regarding these processions:
The Father is made by none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone, neither made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son, not made, nor created, nor begotten, but he proceeds from them.
So although equal, processions do have an order. The Father is “greater” (as source), but is equal in dignity to Son and Holy Spirit.
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By faith we understand that the universe was formed by God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible. Hebrews 11:3
1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, 2“Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge? 3“Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me! 4“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, 5Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? 6“On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? 8“Or who enclosed the sea with doors When, bursting forth, it went out from the womb; 9When I made a cloud its garment And thick darkness its swaddling band, 10And I placed boundaries on it And set a bolt and doors, 11And I said, ‘Thus far you shall come, but no farther; And here shall your proud waves stop’? Job 38:1-11
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” 18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Romans 1:16-23
More later....off to work.
Elsie:
Come on Elsie, what I mean by Catholic framework is what theological framework one sees how Doctrine is taught and defined. Not that either is right or wrong, it is just what is on scale of 1 to 100, which one is closer to 100 so to speak. As a Catholic, I put the Catholic way at 100, the Wesleyan perspective would be above 90 since it comes from the Anglican Tradition [of course I mean the historic Anglican and Wesleyan Tradition, recognizing there has been some modernist movements in both of those]
1In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He existed in the beginning with God. 3Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life brought light to humanity. 5And the light shines on in the darkness, and the darkness has never put it out.
6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify about the light, so that all might believe because of him. 8John was not the light, but he camed to testify about the light. 9This was the true light that enlightens every person by his coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through him. Yet the world did not recognize him.
11He came to his own creation, yet his own people did not receive him. 12However, to all who received him, those believing in his name, he gave authority to become God’s children, 13who were born, not merely in a genetic sense, nor from lust, nor from man’s desire, but from the will of God.
No matter how you ask the questions or the varied answers given to you, you will not find satisfaction until you receive Him and are born from above. There is no philosophical syllogism which will work for the limitless ...
1In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He existed in the beginning with God. 3Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life brought light to humanity. 5And the light shines on in the darkness, and the darkness has never put it out.
6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify about the light, so that all might believe because of him. 8John was not the light, but he came to testify about the light. 9This was the true light that enlightens every person by his coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through him. Yet the world did not recognize him.
11He came to his own creation, yet his own people did not receive him. 12However, to all who received him, those believing in his name, he gave authority to become God’s children, 13who were born, not merely in a genetic sense, nor from lust, nor from man’s desire, but from the will of God.
No matter how you ask the questions or the varied answers given to you, you will not find satisfaction until you receive Him and are born from above. There is no philosophical syllogism which will work for the limitless ...
All you did was ask a bunch of questions for a reply to a question to you...
So how about you answer your own questions...
After a decade of exchanging with Mormons over the very same conundrum of God's origin (an imagined theme), there is no thing which will convince someone who thinks The God of Creation came into existence. Magic Thinking is so deeply ingrained in such a perspective that you cannot reach the origin of their error.
God condemns man's philosophy...It provides not one iota of understanding God or God's wisdom...Why would a Christian waste his/her time with philosophy, other than to wow others with his vast array of useless thought???
You have been victimized severely and need hugs.
Nice deflection but that STILL does NOT answer the question ealgeone is raising about your belief that God had a beginning.
Care to address that instead of demanding answers from everyone else.
Certain CAtholics seem to know who they are.
Sorry; but a framework will stretch the subject to be dried to fit it’s perimeter.
Too limiting for me; no matter how many make a claim that the framework; THEIR framework; is correct.
If your only tool is a hammer...
Just so we are clear, slinging verse isn’t going to cut it. You were asked very specific direct questions. They require direct answers that actually address them.
Ya know what is really mind boggling, every time I read a post from you I still hear banjo music. You have yourself a good day now.
Don't blame me, you were asked several times to explain your use of the novel label "metatheist" to describe your belief about God and you ignored it. Do you deny you have said, "I can not say either that there is a God or that there isn't."? This is almost as bad as the LGBTXYZ people with their ever changing labels!
Nonetheless, the question then is, did he convince you - an agnostic/metatheist - or was it wasted on you? You praised the explanation and bemoaned that it would be wasted on the "philosophically and theologically illiterate", so was it wasted on you?
It's a sad commentary when the Word of God is insufficient for your questions.
I think a reposting of the Lord's response to Job is appropriate to your assertion His word is somehow insufficient for your questions.
Where were you??
1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
2“Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge?
3“Now gird up your loins like a man, And I will ask you, and you instruct Me!
4“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it?
6“On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone,
7When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8“Or who enclosed the sea with doors When, bursting forth, it went out from the womb;
9When I made a cloud its garment And thick darkness its swaddling band,
10And I placed boundaries on it And set a bolt and doors,
11And I said, ‘Thus far you shall come, but no farther; And here shall your proud waves stop’? Job 38:1-11
You might want to throw out that philosophy book you've been reading or no longer hang out with your fellow philosophers.
You still won't admit what you posted in #160 is an error.
When God came into existence there was nothing else all was void. His first thought must have been self awareness.
The meaning of your post is that God was created by something or someone....unless you're redefining a whole bunch of words.
God did not come into existence. He has always been and always will be.
The ONE who created all that is out of "nothing" has chosen to tell us some of the infinite things and we receive it by faith every bit as much as we receive the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for our sins. Jesus' disciple begged Him to tell them of such things and He told them, "If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?" (John 3:12).
Though it may be entertaining to get into deep discussions over deep subjects, we must realize that it will all make sense once we step into eternity - then we will know as we are known. I can't wait!
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