Posted on 04/16/2016 8:01:29 AM PDT by Salvation
Q. Can you explain about the incorruptibles? I know that some saints are given that designation, but is it part of the process of canonization? What does it mean spiritually if a body is incorrupt? Was St. John XXIII found to be incorrupt?
Name withheld by request, via e-mail
A. The normal process of decay for the human body, especially before embalming was common, was for the remains of a cadaver to be largely skeletonized within just a few years after death. In certain rare cases, however, the usual process of decay seems arrested and the bodies are preserved largely intact.
This fact has been observed in a number of cases regarding Catholic saints.
As part of the process of canonization, the bodily remains of the saints are usually exhumed and examined. In not a few cases, their bodies are found to have escaped the usual decay and corruption that is the lot of the typical human body, which returns to the dust from which it came.
In addition, there is sometimes a pleasant fragrance like roses emanating from the body of those found incorrupt.
Generally speaking, when the body of a candidate for sainthood is found incorrupt, this is looked upon favorably by the Church as a sign of sanctity since, implicitly, the individual has escaped the full consequences of the punishment due to sin. For Adam was told after he sinned, “For you are dust, / and to dust you shall return” (Gn 3:19).
However, to be sure, though incorruptibility is looked upon favorably, it is not an absolute requirement for canonization, for many canonized saints are not listed among the incorruptibles.
Further, natural phenomena — for example, lack of oxygen — can also explain the lengthy preservation of bodies.
Pope St. John XXIII’s body was found largely intact when exhumed. This was judged to be the result of unusually extensive embalming before his entombment.
But it is also important not to be misled by the term incorruptible.
It does not necessarily mean that the person looks exactly as they did the day the casket was closed. The usual condition of an incorruptible is more akin to a kind of mummified state. Though the skin and organs may be largely intact, and still flexible, most of the moisture of the body has departed, producing a mummified look.
Further, when one looks at the bodies of incorruptible saints in some of the churches of Europe, a wax mask of sorts often covers the face and hands.
Most notably, the beautiful face of St. Bernadette, the visionary of Lourdes, that people see when they visit Nevers, France, actually includes a wax mask that covers the face and hands of her incorrupt body. Her actual face has a more mummified appearance, as seen in photos of her exhumed body. Her body is incorrupt, but her face and hands (visible outside her habit) are not as moist and fully featured as when she was alive.
So we ought not have a notion that is too exaggerated about what an incorruptible body looks like. They have surely evaded the usual human condition which reduces us to dust and bones, but they seldom look like the very day they died.
I refuse to reply to your idiotic posts ever again; as you have proven to be a moron with an agenda...
Alinksy would be proud of you.
As I said. You and the Clintons would get along just fine.
Just as I said:
The simple fact is that John A. O’Brien was an excellent theologian who actually understood the Catholic faith - which does not seem to be true in your case from what you yourself have repeatedly written in this forum. He KNEW Jesus could not be sacrificed over and over again and wrote about Christ’s ONE TIME sacrifice in his books. In fact, in the book in question, through the wonders of google book previews, you can see that on page 190 he refers to Christ’s sacrifice on the cross as “the one perfect sacrifice” while talking about confession. In other words, he knows the power of confession - of absolving sins - comes from the one sacrifice 2,000 years ago but is inexhaustible in the sacrament of confession even now. The Eucharist is the same. Again, through google books, “It [meaning the Eucharist] is an unbloody renewal of the sacrifice of Calvary” (page 317). It’s the SAME sacrifice. It is NOT Jesus being sacrificed again and again and again. No one could do that if they tried. It’s the same sacrifice offered.
You’ve already been REFUTED. You can’t make a claim that O’Brien said Jesus “is continually sacrificed on the altar again and again and again” when the priest himself says that it is “[the Eucharist] is an unbloody renewal of the sacrifice of Calvary”.
As he wrote on page 304:
“The manner in which the sacrifices are offered is alone different: on the Cross Christ really shed His Blood and was really slain; in the Mass, however, there is no real shedding of blood, no real death; but the separate consecration of the bread and of the wine symbolizes the separation of the body and blood of Christ and thus symbolizes His death upon the Cross. The Mass is the renewal and perpetuation of the sacrifice of the Cross in the sense that it offers anew to God the Victim of Calvary and thus commemorates the sacrifice of the Cross, reenacts it symbolically and mystically, and apples the fruits of Christ’s death upon the Cross to individual human souls. All the efficacy of the Mass is derived, therefore, from the sacrifice of Calvary.”
Gee, I guess you missed that passage.
“As I said. You and the Clintons would get along just fine.”
As I said, you change the meanings of words to suit your anti-Catholicism.
You’ve been refuted.
That won’t change.
The whole business of the Mass being an unbloody or bloody sacrifice is the problem.
The Mass is the renewal and perpetuation of the sacrifice of the Cross in the sense that it offers anew to God the Victim of Calvary and thus commemorates the sacrifice of the Cross, reenacts it symbolically and mystically,... (uh oh...ellipsis alert!)
11Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. Hebrews 10:11-14
There is no need of any sacrifice. Period.
It's already been done.
As He said on the Cross: Τετέλεσται
The catholic can name and rename whatever they want, but it doesn't change what it is.
Whether it be veneration, dulia, a sacrifice presented again, worship, statues of mary are not considered idols, kneeling before said statue is not worship, relying upon mary for salvation is not really relying upon her for salvation, etc.
Catholicism has to redefine the normal understanding of everyday words and sentences.
It's one of the most convaluted systems I've encountered.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make the horse drink.
Same with some posters here, their mind is made up and the Truth can’t enter and they don’t want to understand. They are here to win arguments even when their logic and Truth is missing. There are some that are reasonable and one can have a good discussion with, but I don’t recall anyone proving Catholic doctrine wrong. They are entitled to their opinion and practicing their faith as they want.
While it may be frustrating to deal with, it just makes our understanding and faith stronger.
Just keep Spreading the Good News and the Truth. Others may learn and seek the Truth.
While you're at it, throw in the promises of the apparitions that promise:
"3) The Rosary will be a very powerful armor against hell; it will destroy vice, deliver from sin and dispel heresy."
in contradiction of
"Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil." Ephesians 6:11;
along with
"5) Those who trust themselves to me through the Rosary will not perish."
in direct contradiction
of John 14:6 where Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." (the Greek in John 14:6 is emphatic in that it makes it clear there is NO OTHER WAY to gain Heaven) in addition to 24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. John 5:24
12) "To those who propagate my Rosary I promise aid in all their necessities."
in contradiction of
"And my God will supply all your needs according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus." Philippians 4:19
along with
"11) What you shall ask through my Rosary you shall obtain."
in direct contradiction of
"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.: John 14:13
Sources of the promises of the apparition: http://www.santorosario.net/english/promises.htm
Your posts are well stated.
Thanks for standing up for the Truth and Catholic doctrine.
Your posts about the Rosary remind me I didn’t recite it today. I’ll have to remember for tomorrow. Thanks.
“Beg to differ.
>>5. The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.<<”
Okay, let’s look at how we “worship Mary” by reciting the Rosary.
We begin by saying, “In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” while making the sign of the Cross on which our Savior died.
Then we proceed to the Apostle’s Creed. “... and in Jesus Christ, Our Lord, who was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, passed under Pontius Pilate...” Not much worship there.
Then the Lord’s Prayer. No mention of Saint Mary there.
Now we have three Hail Marys. Surely this is worship of Mary, right?
This prayer begins by echoing the Scriptural description of events when the angel came to tell Mary she was to bear the Son of God. The angel first greeted her – “Hail, Mary.” In this case, the word translated as “hail” doesn’t mean something like the German “heil,” but is rather just a greeting.
Next, he tells her that she is filled with God’s Grace and that the Lord is with her—and he would know. Next, according to Scripture, he tells her that she is blessed among women, and her Son Jesus is also blessed.
Next, after granting her appropriate honor by calling her holy and noting that she bore God the son, we ask her to pray for us. A person would have to be egregiously tendentious to call that worship.
Following this, we pray the Gloria Patri: “Glory be to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, for all eternity.”
Then many people pray the Fatima prayer: “O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell; lead all souls to heaven, especially those who are in most need of Thy mercy.”
On the large bead, we announce the event in Jesus’ life that we will next contemplate. If it were Sunday, the first event we would be contemplating would be the Resurrection of our Lord from the dead. We then pray the Lord’s Prayer, and commence to contemplate the Resurrection.
And how long do we contemplate this? Well, since it’s the middle ages and none of us has access to a timepiece, we contemplate it for as long as it takes us to recite ten Hail Marys.
When we come to the next large bead, we again pray the Gloria Patri and the Fatima Prayer, announce the second event we intend to contemplate—in this case the Ascension of our Lord into Heaven—Pray the Lord’s Prayer, and contemplate the Ascension for the time it takes to say the Hail Mary ten times.
The remaining three events in Jesus’ life are the Descent of the Holy Spirit upon the apostles on Pentecost, the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary into Heaven, and the Coronation of the Virgin Mary.
I specifically chose to discuss the Glorious Mysteries because they contain the only two events in the Rosary specifically involving the Blessed Virgin, and I did not want to be accused of trying to hide them.
So, is it worshipping Mary to believe that her Son—Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ—Loves Mary as his earthly mother? We know He loves her, because He loves us all. I believe, for a number of reasons, that He is fond of her above all women. I believe that what she asks Him for, she receives. Even though these two mysteries involve things that happened to Mary, the central fact is that they were done by God, through His authority and power. There is simply no worship of the Blessed Virgin to be found here.
When we have completed our contemplation of the five events in the life of Our Savior, we pray the Hail Holy Queen.
If you want to criticize the English translation of this prayer on aesthetic grounds, I have no rebuttal. To me, the English sounds as though it were written by an overly emotional teen-aged girl with a tin ear and a tiny vocabulary. I can only recite it comfortably in Latin.
For example, the name of the prayer is “Salve Regina.” There’s no “holy.” That’s just stuck in there gratuitously. The sense of the prayer, though, is that we ask her to help us get to Jesus.
Eia ergo, advocata nostra, illos tuos misericordes oculos ad nos converte. Et Jesum, benedictum fructum ventris tui, nobis post hoc exsilium ostende.
Therefore, our advocate, turn your merciful eyes upon us, and after our Earthly exile lead us to Jesus, the Blessed fruit of your womb.
Ora pro nobis, Sancta Dei Genetrix. Ut digni efficiamur promissionibus Christi.
Pray for us, Holy Mother of God, that we may become worthy of the promises of Christ.
Lastly, we have the Prayer After the Rosary which is, to the best of my knowledge, optional:
O God, whose only-begotton Son, by His life, death and resurrection, has purchased for us the rewards of eternal life; grant, we beseech Thee, that meditating upon these mysteries of the Most Holy Rosary of the Blessed Virgin Mary, we may imitate what they contain and obtain what they promise, through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
There’s no “worship of Mary” in there anywhere.
If my explanation of the mechanics of the Rosary was confusing, I apologize. Certainly, better explanations are readily available. My intent was to show that nowhere in the Rosary do we offer Mary that which belongs exclusively to God.
And how can she guarantee that a soul shall not perish? Solely on the authority of her Son, obviously. I believe that it is not the recitation of the prayers that saves, but the closer walk with God that prayer brings.
“When catholicism tears down the statutes of Mary including the ones where Mary is always the grown up holding a little Jesus.”
What’s wrong with religious art? Has your church never had a manger scene at Christmas? And when you had one, were you praying to the statues as idols?
And are you convinced that Mary didn’t carry the Baby Jesus in her arms on the journey from Bethlehem to Nazareth?
I mean, if you hate art, can’t you at least let other people enjoy it?
Difference being I never knelt and prayed to any of the “art” nor asked the “art” for anything nor invoke the “arts” name for salvation as catholics do with Mary.
“Difference being I never knelt and prayed to any of the “art” nor asked the “art” for anything nor invoke the “arts” name for salvation as catholics do with Mary.”
It’s baffling. Truly.
Catholics don’t do *any* of those thing.
I feel compelled to urge to try harder to see the truth. It looks to me like you’re not trying at all.
Lenin’s body has required thousands of dollars annually to preserve. Not so with Bernadette. His body looks horrible.
I hope you aren't saying cathokics don't pray to Mary because they're too many examples. The apparitions that pass themselves off as mary tell the people to trust in her for salvation.
If you're serious about this I don't mind discussing.
I understand the emotional attachment catholics have for Mary and to ask someone to question that attachment is difficult. If you're open to an honest discussion we can do that.
I would recommend we do so over freepmail for confidentiality purposes.
So the anti-Catholic is mimicking Satan.
Why are you so concerned about the Catholic Faith? Are you offended that Catholics and non Catholics pray the rosary? So are you against prayer?
Do you know that centuries before St Dominic, that monks recite all 150 psalms and called the rosary beads “paternosters” (Our Fathers) for use by lay brothers (who could not read the psalms).
You should realize that Rosary is for meditation. When Catholics recite the twelve prayers that form a decade of the rosary,they meditate on the mystery associated with that decade. Joyful, Sorrowful, Glorious and Luminous.
Each decade is devoted to a mystery regarding the life of Jesus or his mother. Here the word mystery refers to a truth of the faith.
With the exception of the two glorious mysteries, each mystery is explicitly scriptural. True, the Assumption and Coronation of Mary are not explicitly stated in the Bible, but they are not contrary to it, so there is no reason to reject them out of hand.
For more information: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-rosary
You should be familiar with prayers of the Rosary; Apostles Creed, our Father, Hail Mary and the Glory Be.
Many Protestants now say the rosary, recognizing it as a truly biblical form of prayer—after all, the prayers that comprise it come mainly from the Bible.
“I hope you aren’t saying Catholics don’t pray to Mary”
As I just said that at considerable length, and included what I think is a considerable amount of reasoned argument and support, it is impossible to take this seriously.
Out.
I note you do not refute the claims of the apparition.
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