Posted on 11/25/2015 10:50:25 AM PST by damonw
POST IS TOO LONG TO POST ALL HERE - A F.A.I.R. Mormon Apologist by the name of CC (CleanCut) submitted a response to ALL 17 of the claims in this post 17 Little Known Facts About the Mormons
What follows is,,,
1. the 17 facts as stated by Challengemin.org
2. CCs comments. (You see CCs original comments for verification on the above post comments section)
3. my (Damons) counter comments.
FACT #1 The Mormon Church teaches ALL other Churches are WRONG; ALL their creeds are an ABOMINATION in the sight of God; and ALL their teachers are corrupt.
One of the Mormon Books of Scripture, The Pearl of Great Price, says this about non-LDS churches: … they were ALL WRONG and the Personage who addressed me said that ALL their creeds were an ABOMINATION in his sight; that those professors were ALL CORRUPT.(Joseph Smith 2:19).
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CC: The truth about this fact is that The LDS Church teaches that all churches have some truth, just not the fullness of the truth. This particular quote refers to the creeds of the churches that we believe are wrong, but not that all the individual Christians who follow them are wrong in their sincere desire to follow Christ the best they know how.
DAMON: Mormonism is built on the First visions of Joseph Smith. And while there are 3 contradictory accounts of this First Vision, they all agree in making the false assertion that Christianity is apostate and an abomination to God. Mormonism has this in common with all churchs (Christian cults) that started from Campbells Restoration Movement.
This post shows what Mormon leaders have always said, and still do say about Christianity. AND IT AINT NICE
So Joel Osteen says Mormons are Christians, But what do Mormons say about Christianity?
(Excerpt) Read more at discerningsounddoctrine.wordpress.com ...
Speaking of WITNESSES...
Millions of the Jaredites are slain in battle—Shiz and Coriantumr assemble all the people to mortal combat—The Spirit of the Lord ceases to strive with them—The Jaredite nation is utterly destroyed—Only Coriantumr remains.
1 And it came to pass when Coriantumr had recovered of his wounds, he began to remember the awords which Ether had spoken unto him.
2 He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly atwo millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children.
3 He began to repent of the evil which he had done; he began to remember the words which had been spoken by the mouth of all the prophets, and he saw them that they were fulfilled thus far, every whit; and his soul amourned and refused to be bcomforted.
4 And it came to pass that he wrote an epistle unto Shiz, desiring him that he would spare the people, and he would give up the kingdom for the sake of the lives of the people.
5 And it came to pass that when Shiz had received his epistle he wrote an epistle unto Coriantumr, that if he would give himself up, that he might slay him with his own sword, that he would spare the lives of the people.
6 And it came to pass that the people repented not of their iniquity; and the people of Coriantumr were stirred up to anger against the people of Shiz; and the people of Shiz were stirred up to anger against the people of Coriantumr; wherefore, the people of Shiz did give battle unto the people of Coriantumr.
7 And when Coriantumr saw that he was about to fall he fled again before the people of Shiz.
8 And it came to pass that he came to the waters of Ripliancum, which, by interpretation, is large, or to exceed all; wherefore, when they came to these waters they pitched their tents; and Shiz also pitched his tents near unto them; and therefore on the morrow they did come to battle.
9 And it came to pass that they fought an exceedingly sore battle, in which Coriantumr was wounded again, and he fainted with the loss of blood.
10 And it came to pass that the armies of Coriantumr did press upon the armies of Shiz that they beat them, that they caused them to flee before them; and they did flee southward, and did pitch their tents in a place which was called Ogath.
11 And it came to pass that the army of Coriantumr did pitch their tents by the hill Ramah; and it was that same hill where my father Mormon did ahide up the records unto the Lord, which were sacred.
12 And it came to pass that they did gather together all the people upon all the face of the land, who had not been slain, save it was Ether.
13 And it came to pass that Ether did abehold all the doings of the people; and he beheld that the people who were for Coriantumr were gathered together to the army of Coriantumr; and the people who were for Shiz were gathered together to the army of Shiz.
14 Wherefore, they were for the space of four years gathering together the people, that they might get all who were upon the face of the land, and that they might receive all the strength which it was possible that they could receive.
15 And it came to pass that when they were all gathered together, every one to the army which he would, with their wives and their children—both men, women and children being armed with aweapons of war, having shields, and bbreastplates, and head-plates, and being clothed after the manner of war—they did march forth one against another to battle; and they fought all that day, and conquered not.
16 And it came to pass that when it was night they were weary, and retired to their camps; and after they had retired to their camps they took up a howling and a alamentation for the loss of the slain of their people; and so great were their cries, their howlings and lamentations, that they did rend the air exceedingly.
17 And it came to pass that on the morrow they did go again to battle, and great and terrible was that day; nevertheless, they conquered not, and when the night came again they did rend the air with their cries, and their howlings, and their mournings, for the loss of the slain of their people.
18 And it came to pass that Coriantumr wrote again an epistle unto Shiz, desiring that he would not come again to battle, but that he would take the kingdom, and spare the lives of the people.
19 But behold, the aSpirit of the Lord had ceased striving with them, and bSatan had full power over the chearts of the people; for they were given up unto the hardness of their hearts, and the blindness of their minds that they might be destroyed; wherefore they went again to battle.
20 And it came to pass that they fought all that day, and when the night came they slept upon their swords.
21 And on the morrow they fought even until the night came.
22 And when the night came they were adrunken with anger, even as a man who is drunken with wine; and they slept again upon their swords.
23 And on the morrow they fought again; and when the night came they had all fallen by the sword save it were fifty and two of the people of Coriantumr, and sixty and nine of the people of Shiz.
24 And it came to pass that they slept upon their swords that night, and on the morrow they fought again, and they contended in their might with their swords and with their shields, all that day.
25 And when the night came there were thirty and two of the people of Shiz, and twenty and seven of the people of Coriantumr.
26 And it came to pass that they ate and slept, and prepared for death on the morrow. And they were large and mighty men as to the strength of men.
27 And it came to pass that they fought for the space of three hours, and they fainted with the loss of blood.
28 And it came to pass that when the men of Coriantumr had received sufficient strength that they could walk, they were about to flee for their lives; but behold, Shiz arose, and also his men, and he swore in his wrath that he would slay Coriantumr or he would perish by the sword.
29 Wherefore, he did pursue them, and on the morrow he did overtake them; and they fought again with the sword. And it came to pass that when they had aall fallen by the sword, save it were Coriantumr and Shiz, behold Shiz had fainted with the loss of blood.
30 And it came to pass that when Coriantumr had leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he smote off the head of Shiz.
31 And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and afell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died.
32 And it came to pass that aCoriantumr fell to the earth, and became as if he had no life.
33 And the Lord spake unto Ether, and said unto him: Go forth. And he went forth, and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled; and he afinished his brecord; (and the chundredth part I have not written) and he hid them in a manner that the people of Limhi did find them.
34 Now the last words which are written by aEther are these: Whether the Lord will that I be translated, or that I suffer the will of the Lord in the flesh, it mattereth not, if it so be that I am bsaved in the kingdom of God. Amen.
https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/ether/15
And yet the BOOK says...
Ether 14:22
And so swift and speedy was the war that there was none left to bury the dead, but they did march forth from the shedding of blood to the shedding of blood, leaving the bodies of both men, women, and children strewed upon the face of the land, to become a prey to the worms of the flesh.
Mormonic placemarker
Out west water is everything, when you poisoned a source of water it killed the livestock and people, what the Mormons did may not have been right but I understand their anger. There was never much proof that this wagon train did any of the poisoning and a trial would have been nice but it wasn’t the first time lives were lost without a trial.
How about some PROOF of your accusations: "the Mormons had been raided driven off the land they owned, had their homes and property burned to the ground and murdered many times", and "The Mormons had plenty of innocent lives lost at the barrel of a gun well before this."
I’ve never considered myself ‘a scholar’, although i have done the side-by-side reading of:
KJV, NIV, RSV, TEV, Living, Messianic Jewish Ta’anach.
As some would call him, “John the Revelator”’s last passages do warn of editing, redacting, and adding to Scripture, a crime that has been committed ever since the words were first published, by scribe or press, and do include the mormons, as well.
If i remember, it was the mormons and their abstracts that got them thrown out of St. Louis, MO, at first.
The mormons are, and have been a cult, and like any cult, cannot allow any sort of holy writ to stand without writing their own theology to make it correct.
“The only characteristics attributable to Christ are those He actually has. Being created is not one. Being married is not one. And so much more.”
you still cannot see past your own personal perceptions. just because mormons have a different understanding of the nature of the Son of God than you claim to have, does not mean that they are worshipping someone other than the same Jesus Christ that you worship. I bet your take, as a Christian, on who Muhammad was would differ greatly from that of a devout follower of Islam. Those differences in perception have no influence whatsoever on who Muhammad was—none. a human’s perception of an object has no influence on the object itself, except to the observer. A parents perception of their child could differ from that of that child’s teacher, but they still are describing the very same child: just different perceptions.
“Jesus Christ is ‘the image of the invisible God’, not ‘God the image’.”
please cite the specific scriptures in the KJV of the Bible that support your contentions?
“The gruesome be headings of some 40 Ute corpses in 1850, heads stacked in boxes,and hung by their long hair from the eves of buildings at Fort Utah, has long been ignored, “You didn’t see the Indians beheading the Mormons.”
Elsie—who would you rather have living next door to your home today: a mormon or an Islamic terrorist? i know whom i would prefer.
Elsie—a very interesting and thought provoking document.
Fact: I think Jim wanted the religious attacks to stop.
I engaged in a two year LDS prostyliting Mission in Africa
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Gee kid yuz speshall...
Poor Willard had to make do with deep dark Paris and a mansion...
From what you said about the Christian Nicene Creed straight out of the Christian Bible which I believe, you don’t celebrate Thanksgiving to that same God of the Nicene Creed...
so Happy Thanksgiving to the rest of the FReepers in this thread...
Teppe: I engaged in a two year LDS prostyliting Mission in Africa, I was a commissioned Officer in the US Army, I am a Licensed Civil Engineer, I am a proud American, I have a wonderful family, and I worship Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior.
Elsie: That’s nice, but how are you with the management of your religious organization?
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But more importantly how is Teppe with the management of Heaven ???
The Christian Heaven...the Christian God ...
“just because Muslims attribute different characteristics than yours to Jesus doesn’t mean that you and the Muslims aren’t worshiping the same God. “
we may worship the same Jehovah, but i doubt that any devout Muslim would be worshiping Jesus Christ. Their perception of Christ is far different than my perception of Christ as my Lord and Saviour, but that doesn’t change who Christ is. how could it? perceptions do not change the true nature of the object perceived, except in the eyes of the observer, like yourself Elsie, who are blinkered by your beliefs.
please explain what law of physics supports your contention that perception, or misconception, changes the true nature of something? people used to believe the world was flat. did that misconception change the actual nature/shape [oblate spheroid] of the earth itself? i think not.
This whole comment is a mess...gross and sweeping generalizations about that wagon trains without any proof (your last admonishment re:”...at least try to make it truthful.”)
And if I recall from past engagements, you absolutely do have “a horse in the race”.
In addition, your usage of “by their fruits...” demonstrates your ignorance on the actual topic/meaning of that passage...in fact, your usage of it prompts me to bring it to light that the mormon “prophets”, to also include the founder of mormonism have issued numerous false prophecies (the “their” that is there and the prophecies that are rotten FRUITS) and I thank you for that.
Happy Thanksgiving.
FLDS/LDS “Prophets” Brigham Young and Joseph Smith taught and practiced murder for those “apostates” who dared to leave the cult. They called it “blood atonement”.
February 8, 1857 sermon
“Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved... and suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding of his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, ‘shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?’
“All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers and sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? that man or woman well enough to shed their blood?Â
“I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance... if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the Devil... I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them....
“This is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it....if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. That is the way to love mankind.”Â
(Sermon by President Brigham Young, delivered in the Mormon Tabernacle, printed in the Deseret News, February 18, 1857
Apparently you don’t recall the three convenient deaths by BOMB that occured in 1985 against a group that publicly tricked the Salt Lake Sect “Prophet, Seer, and Revelator”.
Public bombings sound EXACTLY like islamic terrorism to me.
http://www.nytimes.com/1985/10/17/us/mormon-reseacher-injured-in-3d-utah-bombing.html
“you still cannot see past your own personal perceptions. just because mormons have a different understanding of the nature of the Son of God than you claim to have, does not mean that they are worshipping someone other than the same Jesus Christ that you worship.”
I can clearly see Who the Scriptures declare the Son of God to be.
Now, you make the argument that if someone ignores those inspired Words, then they can make up anything and in the end, it is still the same person.
Truth is not subjective. It is declared the God.
Just because someone believes Christ was a cucumber or a reincarnated salamander, does not make those objects Christ. They will always not be Christ. Consequently, they have no power to save. They are simply made up.
In the end, the object of your faith is what saves. That which cannot save, doesn’t transform because you have extra faith.
The syncretic mormonic beliefs, which are part New Age Movement, part cultic demonism and part Scientology, are always wrong and because they lead people to hell, always evil.
I was mormon all my life. I am a direct descendant of Martin Harris who sold his farm to pay for the very first printing of the BoM after scribing it for Joseph Smith. I am a former Marine Corps Platoon Sgt. I was temple married and a bishopric member at 30. Just last year I went expecting to DIE to protect mormons from what i believed would be another Eric Holder Apr 19th slaughter like waco and ruby ridge....several years AFTER these very Christians here opened my blind eyes so God could save me. They and I do what we do out of LOVE for YOU. This is me guarding the grandchildren on April 19th, at the Bundy Ranch standoff.
Here are the facts:
1. You taught hundreds "the plan of salvation" without knowing that Joseph Smith ripped every word of it off from Emmanuel Swedenborg in his 1770's book "A treatise on Heaven and Hell"...every 'jot and tittle' as they say. Library records showed Joseph Smith checked it out a dozen times before the 'first vision'. Swedenborgianism is still around btw, stationed in san franfreakso. Look it up. You didn't know this because your LEADERS kept this secret from you.
2. One of the gods in Smith's first vision told him that the reason for the whole thing was a mistranslated bible. According to Smith, after completing the BoM, an angel told him to 'retranslate' the entire bible. Your founding "prophet, seer and revelator", the only one who claimed personal physical visits from the gods, spent two years doing this. After Brigham Young declared it "spurious" and a "fraud", the Salt Lake sect does not use it to this day. Knowing this is absolutely inexcusable, the Salt Lake sect leadership put in a handful of footnotes and cross references to the JST bible, covering about 2% of Smith's work. The church with 6 billion for a SLC mall says they can't afford printing rights to this day.
3. In the 'first vision' the gods also told Smith they were upset about so many denominations in Christianity. Between then and now, mormonism has fractured into at least 114 different sects.
As you can see, the very foundation is shattered....a house built on sand, ruled over by "prophets, seers and revelators" who prophesy nothing, see nothing, and reveal nothing. The keep embarassing secrets from YOU.
Did you know that the Catholics excommunicated Pelosi over her abortion votes? Harry Reid on the other hand gets to address the entire byu student body and faculty and claim Ezra Taft Benson was a false prophet....then brags about being a temple recommend holder. There is only ONE explanation for this! It is ALL FRAUD!
You're a smart guy, use the brain God gave you! If you can't understand what i laid out before you, take it to your superiors...do your research and PROVE ME WRONG IN PUBLIC!
Who are you to over rule your own "prophet"? Really!
In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak." (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7)
Matthew 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment
2 Corinthians 11:4
 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
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