Papyrus in the Rylands Library, Manchester UK
Posted on 11/06/2015 11:30:07 AM PST by NYer
Papyrus in the Rylands Library, Manchester UK
One of the things that maddens and amuses me about Protestants is something called “primitivismâ€. I’ve written about it here. “Primitivism†is the ambition to return the church to the simplest form as it was in the “early churchâ€.
The little fundamentalist church in which I grew up worked on this assumption. They were going back to basics and getting rid of all those “man made traditionsâ€. They were cutting out the denominations and prayers read out of books and all that fancy stuff and it would be just the Bible.
Their idea of the “early church†was, of course, what their church was like. They were actually ignorant of the facts about the early church, which is understandable as they were Bible only Christians. Consequently they assumed that the early church was just a group of Christians meeting in someone’s home or a simple building to sing songs and have a Bible study.
One of the things they definitely did NOT have was any devotion to the Mother of God. That was a late, Catholic, man made abomination! That was a much later pagan interpolation into the simple Bible based religion!
Except it wasn’t. This blog post outlines the fascinating discovery of the manuscript of the oldest hymn to the Blessed Virgin.Their idea of the “early church†was, of course, what their church was like. They were actually ignorant of the facts about the early church, which is understandable as they were Bible only Christians. Consequently they assumed that the early church was just a group of Christians meeting in someone’s home or a simple building to sing songs and have a Bible study.
One of the things they definitely did NOT have was any devotion to the Mother of God. That was a late, Catholic, man made abomination! That was a much later pagan interpolation into the simple Bible based religion!
Except it wasn’t.
Thisoutlines the fascinating discovery of the manuscript of the oldest hymn to the Blessed Virgin.
The earliest text of this hymn was found in a Christmas liturgy of the third century. It is written in Greek and dates to approximately 250 A.D.In 1917, the John Rylands Library in Manchester acquired a large panel of Egyptian papyrus including the 18 cm by 9.4 cm fragment shown at left, containing the text of this prayer in Greek.
C.H. Roberts published this document in 1938. His colleague E. Lobel, with whom he collaborated in editing the Oxyrhynchus papyri, basing his arguments on paleographic analysis, argued that the text could not possibly be older than the third century, and most probably was written between 250 and 300. This hymn thus precedes the “Hail Mary†in Christian prayer by several centuries.
Here's the text:
On the papyrus:
.ΠΟ
ΕΥCΠΑ
ΚΑΤΑΦΕ
ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕΤ
ΙΚΕCΙΑCΜΗΠΑ
ΕΙΔΗCΕΜΠΕΡΙCTAC
AΛΛΕΚΚΙÎΔΥÎΟΥ
…ΡΥCΑΙΗΜΑC
MONH
…HEΥΛΟΓ
Here it is set to music:
Turns out the hymn to the Theotokos (the God Bearer) dates from 250 AD.
What is very interesting about these comparatively recent documentary and archeological discoveries is not only what we can gather from the scraps of text themselves, but how they become part of a much larger puzzle. We can piece things together to build up a better picture of the true facts.
The hymn is clearly a prayer to the Blessed Virgin asking for her intercession and assistance in time of trouble. This shows continuity with the belief of the church down through the ages. I’m thinking “Mary Help of Christians.â€
Therefore, if this hymn to the Virgin dates from 250 AD we can deduce that it must be a written record of an earlier practice. Think about it, by the time something is written down for use in the liturgy it must already have been in use for some time. Furthermore, if this prayer is part of a document that is a copy of another document, then this also indicates that the actual practice is earlier than the manuscript itself.
In addition to this, if the hymn-prayer is included in the liturgy, then it must be something which is approved by the church and in practice on a fairly widespread basis. If it is included in the liturgy, then the term “theotokos†was not simply a theological term or a theological concept, but something which was integrated into the worshipping and devotional life of the church from the earliest days.
That argument also goes the other way: if the term “theotokos†was used in a hymn-prayer venerating the Blessed Virgin, then a high view of her significance in the plan of redemption must also have been prevalent in the theology of the early church.
You want primitive Christianity? You want to worship like the “early church†then Marian devotion had better be part of it!
There are a lot of unanswered questions Catholics can’t or won’t answer.
Game, set, match.
Well said, sir.
Hoss
Do you concede the knowledge of Greek among the Greek Orthodox is historically superior to yours and that you are simply biased against their conclusion ?
That's why we don't get Mary, because all we have is a bible. In it we find nothing about immaculate conception, ever virgin, mother of god, mother of the church, queen of heaven, distributrix of all grace, co-mediator, co-redeemer, omnipresent hearer of prayers, unbroken hymen, bodily assumed into heaven. Why with only a bible we are completely in the dark and lost about all of the wonders of Mary aren't we?
So, one of us has a big problem!
When I was young, we lived near a monastery. I was a good little Catholic boy and I'd visit the "Brothers." I never had any reason to fear them. ;^)
Regarding what they studied, all I can say is that they were excellent Ping-Pong players.
Regarding their mood, I remember one Brother who wanted me to sneak in a recording of Simon and Garfunkel "Bridge over Troubled Water" (on reel-to-reel tape, btw).
____
The indoctrination is too deep in many cases.
My remark ("...put the matter to rest...") was sarcasm. I thought it was too obvious to use the tag. I think we are dealing with a few Roman Catholics who are really hard over on their religion. God has the power to reach them - and only He has the power to soften ANY OF OUR HEARTS.
From my perspective, they are currently only serving as a means to expose to others who are watching the most radical nature of their church's teaching. My hope is that their obvious extreme "indoctrination" will demonstrate for others their unconformities with the revealed will of the One True God.
LOL - it has been changed, too. Maybe you forgot.
Even your answer to (only one) of my questions is contradictory.
But you did TRY at least.
Yes, I get that. I see the wide and long historical gulf. I see the theory that anyone could pick up the Bible as an instruction manual and recreate themselves and the faith once delivered to the saints without apostolic succession. I see the history of all the communities that have tried. I see them in disunity, and worse. Can you tell me the longest running Baptist association that is unsplintered ?
It seems to me that not only do they not believe the Messiah founded his church upon Peter and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it, but that they do not believe his prayer here was answered either. These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me. And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
John, Catholic chapter seventeen, in its entirety,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
Look!
A Squirrel!!
That verse says so much about being saved being about faith and knowing who God is. There is not a word in that prayer about Mary. There is faint little in the whole bible about Mary. I think knowing about Mary is NOT knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ whom He has sent. Hence the ongoing 1000 somewhat enjoyable threads of debate and discussion about our differences.
In the end I think a Muslim would kill us both and that comforts me, for some reason.
Has Rome kidnapped and kept John in the Roman cats so that they have a last remaining Apostle? Magic Thinking has given rise to the notion that Apostles exist in our day. The original Apostleship ended with John’s death, unless the Vatican has somehow kept him sequestered for their empowerment.
Rules for thee but not for me.
The one Truth that called into the ministry born again beleivers preach is found in the unchanging Word of God, the Gospel.
Unlike the CCC which changes more often than Carter has pills.
Yes, we repeat the creed in the LCMS as well. Funny how the One Catholic Faith only says that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, but nothing else about Mary. Hmmm. I wonder why? Jesus was not born of Mary because Mary was some supernatural perfect being, but because she was of the right blood-line, because she was a virgin at the time of Jesus' birth, and because she said yes to God.
Even the exhaustive Creed of Pope Pius IV doesn't add much about Mary, other than we can honor and venerate her image.
The first 3 years are humanistic philosophy...That's why their take on the bible is based on human logic and man's wisdom, reasoning, in contradiction to the words of God...
That's why we don't get Mary, because all we have is a bible. In it we find nothing about immaculate conception, ever virgin, mother of god, mother of the church, queen of heaven, distributrix of all grace, co-mediator, co-redeemer, omnipresent hearer of prayers, unbroken hymen, bodily assumed into heaven. Why with only a bible we are completely in the dark and lost about all of the wonders of Mary aren't we?
But what we do get is the promise that there is nothing outside of the bible that can contribute to our salvation...Everything we need to get saved in contained within the scriptures...
We don't need Mary...We don't need a pope...We don't need the Eucharist...We don't need to send our prayers to anyone other than God...We don't need priests...We don't need confession to a Catholic priest...We don't need statues...We don't need relics and we don't even need candles...And a host of other things they put themselves in bondage to that are not listed in the bible...
Again, ignoring His humanity. She is NOT the mother of the second person of the Godhead.
Mary is the mother of JESUS.
Who did the angel say Mary was going to give birth to?
God?
Or God with us?
Sorry that it’s taken so long to respond to your questions. I’ve been rather busy.
I’m not sure what you mean by “ignoring His humanity.” Just as it is with any child born of a woman, Jesus is a human being. So to speak of Jesus as the “son of Mary” is to implicitly acknowledge His humanity.
I agree with your statement that Mary is the mother of Jesus. It is equally true that the son of Mary is Jesus.
Regarding your question about who the angel said Mary was going to give birth to, I do not find where an angel said either “God” or “God with us”. There was a prophet who foretold that “a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.” (Matt 1:23)
The angel did tell Mary she shall conceive in her womb, and bring forth a son, and shall call his name Jesus. The angel further said that holy thing which shall be born of her shall be called the Son of God. (Cf. Luke 1:31-35)
So Jesus is the Son of God. But is Jesus God? Just as we can find nowhere in Scripture where anyone says Mary is the “mother of God”, neither can we find anywhere in Scripture where anyone says “Jesus is God”. But Scripture clearly reveals that Jesus is God. This is most clearly revealed when Jesus tells the Jews in John 8:58, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”
So, using Scripture, I show how we can say:
The son of Mary is Jesus.
and:
Jesus is God.
The son of Mary is Jesus. Jesus is God.
Accordingly:
The son of Mary is Jesus, who is God.
Therefore:
Jesus, the son of Mary, is God.
You wrote to me in a previous post:
Proper teaching of Jesus uses..... ***SCRIPTURE***
Can you show me, using Scripture, where it says that Jesus, the son of Mary, is not God?
Peace,
Rich
The one I belong to...It goes all the way back to John the Baptist and Jesus...My church is set up by the information that Jesus gave the 1st pope, the apostle Paul, to give to the Christian churches...
Why didn't Jesus tell any of the other apostles how to set up his church??? Your religion stumbled around the bible taking things from the OT and the book of Revelation picking out things apparently that appealed to it's humanist, pagan tradition...Your religion ignores what Jesus taught to pope Paul and his instructions, the apostle to the Gentile Christians...
That was very well said. Thanks!
What is the name of its association/ fellowship ? For example, is it Southern Baptist Convention, etc .?
1Co 4:6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men (or women) above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.
We are instructed not to think about Peter, and Mary above what has been written which is precious little...Every thing we know about Mary can be covered in a few sentences or a paragraph or two...
THAT'S how much time we are to be devoted to thinking about Mary...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.