Papyrus in the Rylands Library, Manchester UK
Posted on 11/06/2015 11:30:07 AM PST by NYer
Papyrus in the Rylands Library, Manchester UK
One of the things that maddens and amuses me about Protestants is something called “primitivismâ€. I’ve written about it here. “Primitivism†is the ambition to return the church to the simplest form as it was in the “early churchâ€.
The little fundamentalist church in which I grew up worked on this assumption. They were going back to basics and getting rid of all those “man made traditionsâ€. They were cutting out the denominations and prayers read out of books and all that fancy stuff and it would be just the Bible.
Their idea of the “early church†was, of course, what their church was like. They were actually ignorant of the facts about the early church, which is understandable as they were Bible only Christians. Consequently they assumed that the early church was just a group of Christians meeting in someone’s home or a simple building to sing songs and have a Bible study.
One of the things they definitely did NOT have was any devotion to the Mother of God. That was a late, Catholic, man made abomination! That was a much later pagan interpolation into the simple Bible based religion!
Except it wasn’t. This blog post outlines the fascinating discovery of the manuscript of the oldest hymn to the Blessed Virgin.Their idea of the “early church†was, of course, what their church was like. They were actually ignorant of the facts about the early church, which is understandable as they were Bible only Christians. Consequently they assumed that the early church was just a group of Christians meeting in someone’s home or a simple building to sing songs and have a Bible study.
One of the things they definitely did NOT have was any devotion to the Mother of God. That was a late, Catholic, man made abomination! That was a much later pagan interpolation into the simple Bible based religion!
Except it wasn’t.
Thisoutlines the fascinating discovery of the manuscript of the oldest hymn to the Blessed Virgin.
The earliest text of this hymn was found in a Christmas liturgy of the third century. It is written in Greek and dates to approximately 250 A.D.In 1917, the John Rylands Library in Manchester acquired a large panel of Egyptian papyrus including the 18 cm by 9.4 cm fragment shown at left, containing the text of this prayer in Greek.
C.H. Roberts published this document in 1938. His colleague E. Lobel, with whom he collaborated in editing the Oxyrhynchus papyri, basing his arguments on paleographic analysis, argued that the text could not possibly be older than the third century, and most probably was written between 250 and 300. This hymn thus precedes the “Hail Mary†in Christian prayer by several centuries.
Here's the text:
On the papyrus:
.ΠΟ
ΕΥCΠΑ
ΚΑΤΑΦΕ
ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕΤ
ΙΚΕCΙΑCΜΗΠΑ
ΕΙΔΗCΕΜΠΕΡΙCTAC
AΛΛΕΚΚΙÎΔΥÎΟΥ
…ΡΥCΑΙΗΜΑC
MONH
…HEΥΛΟΓ
Here it is set to music:
Turns out the hymn to the Theotokos (the God Bearer) dates from 250 AD.
What is very interesting about these comparatively recent documentary and archeological discoveries is not only what we can gather from the scraps of text themselves, but how they become part of a much larger puzzle. We can piece things together to build up a better picture of the true facts.
The hymn is clearly a prayer to the Blessed Virgin asking for her intercession and assistance in time of trouble. This shows continuity with the belief of the church down through the ages. I’m thinking “Mary Help of Christians.â€
Therefore, if this hymn to the Virgin dates from 250 AD we can deduce that it must be a written record of an earlier practice. Think about it, by the time something is written down for use in the liturgy it must already have been in use for some time. Furthermore, if this prayer is part of a document that is a copy of another document, then this also indicates that the actual practice is earlier than the manuscript itself.
In addition to this, if the hymn-prayer is included in the liturgy, then it must be something which is approved by the church and in practice on a fairly widespread basis. If it is included in the liturgy, then the term “theotokos†was not simply a theological term or a theological concept, but something which was integrated into the worshipping and devotional life of the church from the earliest days.
That argument also goes the other way: if the term “theotokos†was used in a hymn-prayer venerating the Blessed Virgin, then a high view of her significance in the plan of redemption must also have been prevalent in the theology of the early church.
You want primitive Christianity? You want to worship like the “early church†then Marian devotion had better be part of it!
“Sadly, ever since the plague if Protestantism we have thousands of contradictory heretical sects and this is because of low-information Christians. How else do you explain the rot of the Joel Osteens? the Mormons? The Jehovah’s Witnesses? and the vast army of fools who take upon themselves to interpret scripture.
“
Or your current pope, or a great many evil popes, priests, cardinals... Or buying and selling church offices, or so many gays in your denomination?? Indeed.
That bears repeating! Thanks, SR! \
Hebrews 4: ...12 For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
14 Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has ascended into heaven, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-yet he did not sin. 16 Let us then approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
Could have, should have, maybe.
Pure speculation.
So, even presuming that maybe Paul did, prove to us that what Rome teaches today came from Paul, that it was passed down faithfully without corruption of any kind.
The fact that the statement is the singular genitive proves that Jesus didn't give Mary to *the church*, that John doesn't represent the body of believers.
It proves that He was talking to only John.
Proof please.
Hoss
In error....so much for truth for Protestants.
"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" Rom. 3:23
All have sinned. Show me where, in Scripture, anyone OTHER than Christ was sinless.... Or where Mary is specifically stated to be sinless and / or a perpetual virgin.
Even Mary knew she needed a savior. She said so!
Hoss
Would these seriously intelligent people (or others like them) also be responsible for CCC 841 which teaches Roman Catholics and Muslims worship the "same, merciful God...."?
I don't think your claim has any wings.
Hoss
I’m just wondering about this obsession that some Roman Catholics have with Mary’s virginity.
I think you’re one of those who say Mary was sinless. Is your virginity obsession directly related to your sinless obsession? Do you think that if Mary had sex with her husband, Joseph, that she would have been sinning? So, sex with Joseph was an impossibility for Mary?
I know... I know. What’s the point of asking you anything. You don’t answer my straightforward questions.
Do you equate marital sex with sin?
Why is it out of the question that Jesis had half-brothers?
Do you think that Mary’s DNA was in Jesus’ blood?
Do you have pictures or website text you can cut n’ paste to answer any of these questions?
Those pesky facts~ always getting in the way of obsessions.
Correction:
Why is it out of the question that Jesus had half-brothers?
Explain the worldwide, regional, and even local contradictions in Holy Roman Catholic "churches".
Explain the contradictory temporal changes in the "Holy Roman Catholic Church's" application of rules and procedures.
And while you're at it: either list the "thousands" of protestant sects or use a different number.
Furthermore:
Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that "an idol has no real existence," and that "there is no God but one." For although there may be so- called gods in heaven or on earth - as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords" - yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (I Cor 8:4-6)You said "sects" and I would have said "religions." I say that "religions" do one of three things: They either "excuse", "promote", or "ignore" sin. Because of that, I have no use for "religion."
I trust Jesus Christ and His Word alone to inform me. Men tend to "carve" their own image of God and thus to suit themselves and their sin.
Some religions are closer to God's Truth than others (based on how they disciple their adherents). Others have used sharp knives to shape something that looks good but is far, far from the Truth. Many religions look good from man's perspective because they fit man's natural expectation of what makes sense to them ("MY God wouldn't ..."). Many people fall into those errors and will go to hell.
We hear from them every day.
Doesn't that mean they weren't acquainted?
Oh, MY!
The Bible says Joseph "KNEW" his wife??
OH! MY!
.
< /sarc>
Look, Rufus' mother is the mother of us all! She is even more humble than Mary, we don't even know her name but you can bet that she was immaculately conceived and is the queen of heaven. She hears our prayers and intercedes with Jesus and He must listen to her because she is the mother of us all.
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
Have you ever lusted in your heart/mind? Ever?
A simple yes or no are the only two choices.
“The son of you” implies that there are no other son.
It proves he was talking to only one person. Was John Mary’s only son, literally?
A simple yes or no are the only two choices.
That you dodged the question leads me to believe your answer is no.
It goes to illustrate we cannot, no matter how much we may try, be good enough to gain Heaven.
It's only through the blood of Christ we are saved. We cannot earn it.
A catholic will argue that they are not yet saved and then point to the passage from the Bible which appears to require perfect behavior to be in the family of God by the presence of God's Spirit in the human spirit.
If the one to whom they aim such a passage (as seen in a recent post to Mark17) makes claim to have been born from above, the catholic mind can reinforce that catholic notion which teaches them they cannot obtain salvation UNTIL they have gone through the hoops of catholic dogma and even a suffering process where they earn entry to Heaven.
If questioned as to their knowing they are saved (not striving to be saved, but saved as in born from above) the catholic can revert to the passage used to try and negate the assurance of salvation the non-Catholic has (as Mark17 has so beautifully shared) and claim that they, the catholics, know they are not yet saved because they are not yet able to behave perfectly before the Lord, as if ANY but Jesus can do that but that they have yet to arrive at such perfects works.
Catholic minds are stuck on a track which reinforces the false notion that in this life salvation rights may be earned, but so few earn them that purgatory must be applied in order to earn the right to salvation.
Of course the Bible not only assures a reader that they may know immediately that their human spirit has been cleansed from unrighteousness and the Holy Spirit of God entered therein, and the Bible even illustrates this TRUTH with two very powerful scenes of the event (the Day of Pentecost following the Ascension and the house of the Roman Centurion, Cornelius). But those illustrations must be explained away because they contradict the magicsteeringthem declarations which catholic minds must follow for righteousness.
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