Is There A Purgatory?

The Bible never speaks of a place where one can go to be purified of his sin. Rather, it always speaks of a Person to whom we can go to be purified: Jesus Christ. God tells us that those who refuse to trust Christ to cleanse them from their sins are condemned: Whoever believes in Him avoids condemnation, but whoever does not believe is already condemned for not believing in the name of God's only Son (John 3:18). There are only two choices: Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God (John 3:36; See also Revelation 20:15; Luke 16:19-31, especially verse 26). Anyone who accepts Christ is completely saved: There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Saying that there is no condemnation, certainly eliminates the flames of purgatory.

Another passage which clearly excludes the idea of purgatory is, their sins and transgressions I will remember no more (Hebrews 10:17). If, as the Bible says, God no longer remembers the sins of those who are in Christ, He does not punish them for these sins. To do so would be saying that Christ had not made full payment for them and that God the Father still remembered them. (See also Romans 5:8-11; Hebrews 10:14-18; Psalm 103:12).

Anyone who does not believe that Christ has completely saved him, has not completely trusted Christ to save him. That is, he does not believe that Christ's sacrifice has paid for all of his sins, and thinks he must pay for some of them himself. However, we are saved when we stop trusting what we can do, and start trusting Christ to save us.

The idea that Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient to cleanse us from all of our sins would condemn a great sinner such as the thief who was crucified with Jesus to suffer a long time in purgatory if not for all eternity in hell! Instead, there was nothing left over that Christ's death on the Cross did not cover. When the thief placed his trust in Christ, Jesus said to him, I assure you: this day you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).

If purgatory existed, and the mass helped people to get out, the rich would have a tremendous advantage by being able to pay for masses to shorten their suffering. The poor instead, would be left to the mercy of the occasional priest who might say an unpaid mass for them. One ex-priest wrote, "If we really believed that the mass would save people from the flames of purgatory, would we make them pay for it? I would even save a dog if I saw one in a fire, and I would never even think of asking to be paid!"

Purgatory was evidently a pagan idea. Virgil, the pagan Latin poet who lived 70 - 19 B.C. divided the departed souls into three different places in his writings: One for the good, one for the damned, and a third where the less bad could pay for their sins. Since the idea of purgatory existed outside of the church before it came into the church, it is probable that it was brought in by contact with pagans like Virgil. There was a great influx of non-Biblical ideas into the church around 300 A.D. when the Roman Emperor Constantine took many unsaved people in as members of the church.

In any event, there is no mention of purgatory in the Bible. Some would try, however, to make the idea sound somewhat Biblical by referring to 2 Maccabees 12:41-45, a passage in one of the apocryphal books written between the times of the Old and New Testaments. These books were never accepted as part of the Hebrew Old Testament, nor quoted in the New Testament, but they are included in the Catholic Bible, though usually with an explanation that they are of a less inspired category. Apart from this passage in 2 Maccabees, the apocrypha is little used by the Catholic church to support a doctrinal position.

It is important to notice that this passage does not speak of purgatory at all, but actually condemns idolatry, particularly the practice of wearing little images on a necklace or such. Hebrew soldiers were found wearing this sort of thing after a battle, and their buddies, on making this discovery, realized that they had died in the sin of idolatry. They then counseled prayer for their souls. The Roman Catholic position is that prayer for them would have been unnecessary if they were in heaven and useless if they were in hell, so there must be another place. The logic seems good, but the result contradicts the clear teaching of the inspired Scripture. Contradicting inspired Scripture with a philosophical response based on an apparent inference from the Apocrypha is a very weak argument indeed. The very word "Apocrypha," which comes from the Greek word for hidden, has come to mean "false," or "of doubtful authorship."

“Many who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost.”

Please allow me to explain.

Just as there are fallen angels, there are many who have been in Christ and have fallen away. Even Jesus stated that not all who use His name know Him. I too have found this to be the case, especially with pastors of large churches. Their identity forms as a leader of people, not as a servant of Jesus and they fall asleep and lose Him.

Many Christians proclaim Jesus as their Savoir and then treat him as a lifeguard that can rescue them when they die. While Jesus has that ability, i.e. to save you when you die, which would you sooner have, a lifeguard who rescues you when you are drowning, or a life guard that teaches you how to swim?

Jesus was teaching us how to swim in order that we might teach others. It is only then that you to can do the things that Jesus did while on earth. If you deny the Christ that is in me, then you would deny that same Christ in entering you. Your communion would be empty.

I will waste no more time explaining this, as Jesus stated, let those who have ears hear. But do not give your pearls to the swine lest they turn on you.

Blessings

Hi, Terycarl. When I stated that I could cry, I was referring primarily to your posts concerning Jewish marriage.

I’m sickened that a person who seems to love the Lord has been deprived any knowledge concerning the greatest Jewish wedding that will ever take place.

Earthly marriage (done according to Scripture) is a model of The Marriage to come. A Jewish marriage. Scripture would make little sense without this understanding.

We are grafted into a Jewish covenant which promised a Messiah. A very Jewish Messiah. Our faith is termed “Judeo-Christian,” as He is the one and only Christ – the very much Jewish Christ - promised in the Old Covenant, and believers took on the title. He never became a non-Jew or un-Jewish, as He was the very fulfillment of the very Jewish Scripture.

Christianity is the result of the fulfilling of the promises of the very, very Jewish Bible. We are grafted in. In other words, the promised Jewish Christ has come, given His marriage proposal, and we respond one way or the other.

I want to know all I can about Jewish marriages, as I look forward to my own some day.

Blessings.

I thought that was what you were saying and was what I was alluding to trying to explain why the concept of Purgatory fits with my growing understanding. Or, said another way, why my understanding doesn't work without the concept of Purgatory.

I'm not trying to push this material on anyone, just posting what I have personally found to be very enlightening, thought provoking and life changing.

If I give this material the "By their fruits" test, I have many reasons to believe it is exactly what it says it is. It has done wonders for me and within me.

There are many, many messages with passages that speak to those who, for whatever reason, just don't seem to take the Word to heart. They know the word, but the Word doesn't seem to know them is how they come across to my uneducated self and I worry for them and about them.

This is a bit long, but in it Jesus speaks to what I believe you are saying and doing and to the "reactions" some have with your witness. Please forgive the length, but there is a lot of good material. This is an excerpt from:

Scriptures Are A Mirror That Reflect Me
November 13, 2001

I solemnly ask everyone: what have you done with Scriptures? Scriptures are a mirror that reflect Me; how is it, if you say you know the Scriptures, you do not recognise My speech? how is it you so easily contradict the truth? I tell you, if you do not recognise Me in My sayings now, it is simply that you do not know nor understand the Scriptures that are a key of the Holy Spirit;
if some of you say: "we do not need this prophetic revelation, we are not obliged to listen to it or read it because Scriptures are enough for us and we can learn all knowledge from them;" I ask you in your incredulity: "do you know why you do not believe and do you know why you are so indifferent and determined to close your heart? do you know why you do not seek anything beyond it?" it is because you have not the Holy Spirit who could have risen you from darkness into His Light enlightening your soul to see the Son together with the Father manifesting themselves to you; the Holy Spirit would have breathed in you a resurrection breath invigorating you, giving you life in Me; can a soul who is dead understand Scriptures and put them into practice if he is not alive?
if you would have understood the Scriptures that are as a mirror, reflecting My Image, you would not have said: "Scriptures are enough for me;" no, My friend, Scriptures are not enough if you do not possess the Holy Spirit; it is through the Light of the Holy Spirit that Revelation can be understood and all that seemed then impenetrable mysteries in Scriptures, and sealed, would become knowable and clear because the key of knowledge would be given to you by the Spirit;
yet, I tell you truly: anyone who has willingly accepted Me, even now when I am speaking, is blessed, because through Me he receives knowledge and Wisdom in such a prodigious way that it is as though he has read all of the Scriptures! he himself will be like a loud book bearing within himself the divine inspirations one obtains through grace; then, My daughter, when he reads Scriptures he would see, not only the words, but, as you have experienced, Vassula, he would see the deep spiritual meaning of its context with his spiritual eye;
therefore, do not oppose My envoys who are like a loud book and an office of prophecy, they come from Me; they do not reveal more than what Scriptures contain, but are a guide for you; they guide your life into a new manner to live truly in Me, improving your life, giving you hope and consolation; I can turn anyone from a wretched being into a Cathedral;
judge not and I shall come to you to conceive My sayings into reality; Scriptures are the Image of Me, your God, do not underestimate them either but do not say you know them when you are far from knowing Me; observe the Commandments and fulfil their sayings so that you have a vision of Me; to fulfil My Word will lead your soul to know Me; then, and only then, you will become god by participation and not by the rule;
have you not understood the meaning of: "listen willingly to any discourse coming from God?" have you been listening? the actions of every creature are before him; disasters, plague, famine, afflictions, wars, blood and death have replaced My flowers3 now through your own hand and through your sins;

Thank you, again, for being a patient witness!

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TADA!