Posted on 07/01/2015 7:13:05 AM PDT by RnMomof7
Recently there has been a surge in prominent Evangelicals calling for unity with Roman Catholicism. In one sense there seems to be strong foundational similarities that would justify these calls to unity. Catholics are baptized in the name of the Trinity. God’s revealed word in the Bible -- setting aside their addition of the Apocryphal books, for argument’s sake -- is foundational to their worldview. Catholics love Christ and believe that he died on the cross and rose again to provide grace for sinners.
Obviously there are theological differences associated with the specific teachings of each one of these perceived similarities, and I do not want to minimize the importance of these differences. But for argument‘s sake, at least on the surface, there is some common ground.
There is also a strong agreement in ethical standards. Both Roman Catholics and Evangelicals ground morality on God’s holy nature as revealed in the law of God. This means that on the hot button moral issues of the day; the murder of the unborn, human sexuality, the sanctity of marriage there is solidarity between Roman Catholic and Evangelical ethics because they are coming from the same source. Again, this seems to justify a call to some sense of unity.
Are these good enough reasons to publically stump for visible unity with Roman Catholics? That question is beyond the scope of this post. But there is a more fundamental question that must be answered first. That question serves as the dividing line between followers of Christ and the world, which separates biblical Christianity from every other worldview; does Rome possess and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
The author of the book of Hebrews in chapter 10 contrasts the gospel with that which is but a shadow of the gospel. He argues:
"And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." -- Heb 10:11–14
The argument being presented here makes it clear that Christ’s singular sacrifice, his death on the cross, perfects those for whom it is made for. This is the gospel. It is contrasted with the shadow of the gospel in which sacrifices were repeatedly made year after year because though they symbolized the atoning and perfecting sacrifice of Christ, they never themselves perfected those for whom they were made. The gospel of Jesus Christ perfects and any other religious strategies cannot.
This principle is directly applicable to the question of Roman Catholicism and the gospel of God. Roman Catholic worship centers on the mass. The mass is a series of liturgical practices that culminates in the Eucharist which according to paragraph 1068 of the Catholic of the Catholic Church (hereafter CCC) is a divine sacrifice. Paragraph 1367 of CCC calls the Eucharist a “truly propitiatory” sacrifice. This sacrifice is performed repeatedly in the life of a Catholic.
The reason the Eucharist is performed repeatedly is because even though it is claimed to be a propitiatory sacrifice that can make reparation for sins (CCC, 1414), it is a sacrifice that never perfects anyone. According to the Catholic message grace is something that you get from God by performing certain acts. First, God gives you the grace for faith in Jesus (CCC, 2000). Second, when you are baptized God graciously erases the sin of Adam from your record (CCC 1257). From that point on you get more grace by doing things like participating in the sacraments, including the Eucharist. The problem is that when you commit sins, you lose some of the grace you have gained and now need more lest your grace be found wanting at final judgment. This forces the Catholic into a position where they need to return day after day, week after week, and year after year to a priest who serves to repeatedly re-present the same sacrifice which never perfects those for whom it is made, since it only offers grace to cover some sin.
This is not the gospel.
Roman Catholics need the gospel for the same reason we all need it. We are all sinners with such a messed up and low view of how holy holiness really is that we think somehow through our own efforts we can attain it. If we just had enough time and willpower we could somehow have our good deeds outweigh our bad, and this will please God just enough for me to be acceptable to him. This is a satanic lie. A satanic lie that to some degree or another we have all bought into at some point in our life.
But the truth is glorious. God is good and God is holy. He is more good and more holy than we can possibly imagine. God is so good and so holy that anything less than absolute perfection is unacceptable in his presence. It is because of God’s awesome goodness and awesome holiness that in his wisdom he has offered us grace, through faith in Christ. A good and holy sacrifice that absolutely without question completely perfects everyone for whom it is made.
The Gospel for Roman Catholics For The Church
| June 14, 2015 | A.D. Robles
http://reformedforum.org/ctc391/
Reformed Forum, Talking with Catholics about the Gospel
"More than seventy-eight million Catholics live in the United States, representing one of the country’s largest demographics. How then can evangelical and Reformed Christians be better equipped to speak about the gospel with those Catholics? We recognize a gap between our understanding and current Catholic practice. In Talking with Catholics about the Gospel: A Guide for Evangelicals, Chris Castaldo leads us toward a better understanding of how to interact with Catholics about the gospel. Castaldo is also the author of Holy Ground: Walking with Jesus as a Former Catholic. Join us for an excellent and much-needed conversation on an important subject."
An hour's audio, worth the listen.
This is hard to hear for a catholic, but the catholic system is contrary to what the Scriptures say is the Way to be born from above and then have God's Life in them. The catholic religion is a 'work to obtain salvation' religion. Christ established His Church upon the profession of Faith that He is whom God has sent to deliver people from their sina nd sin nature. He accomplishes this via placing His Life in us upont he cleansing Faith exhibioted in His Deliverance for our need as totally bankrupt people.
We know that this is an immediate not installment birth by the evidence displayed at Pentecost and in the house of Cornelius. God's Life came into the believers immediately, not even waiting for Peter to finish his sermons!
There is clear blasphemy in the catholic catechism claiming the Priest at Mass brings the Christ down from heaven to be in a wafer that is then placed upon the catholic altar for ingesting by those present for the Mass. Then the catholic church and its apologists defend this blasphemy by ignoring Jesus's own words in John 6 to instead claim Jesus said plainly to eat his flesh and drink His blood ... ignoring of course Jesus's own words to His disciples who were confused by His words which caused some to depart from Him: John 6:62 "What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.
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No lifetime of works is going to change an unrepentant heart, because ONLY God brings the sinner to the point of repenting and believing in Jesus as The Christ, The Son of the Living God. It is God's Holy Spirit Who brings the heart to the state of contrition that meets repentance.
This is as Catholics believe. Again, the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Mt 4:17) Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man. (Council of Trent (1547):DS1528)Pegs and 'whole' aside, the Bible very clearly and repeatedly tells you that it is by God's Grace that your are Saved through Faith in Jesus Christ as The Deliverer and Lord. This is accomplished in you ONLY by His Spirit first bringing you to contrition and repentance, then placing your faith solely in His Promise to be your redeemer, your Savior, your Lord of Life.
Agree, and very Catholic.
Catholicism teaches a different means to be 'born from above', a means which looks more like an installment plan birth which requires your works to be completed.
A false understanding of Catholicism. Works do not bring salvation, it is a pure gift through the merits of the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.
1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life: (Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1529)Although frequently leveled by Protestants, the charge that Catholics believe in salvation through works is false. Where we do differ is that the reception of the Holy Spirit that comes with faith is progressive and not all at once. This is what we mean by an increase in Grace. It does not mean an increase in our own merit through our works. Nor does this need to be completed before death in order to earn Heaven. This cleansing of the soul is finished by God after death in Purgatory.But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus. (Rom 3:21-26)
When you say this do you mean that one cannot sin or that there are no longer any consequences to his sins?
Catholics tell us it's something else, that faith isn't enough.
It is Jesus who say that we will not be forgiven if we do not forgive others. And also:
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’ (Matthew 7:21-23)I'll go with Jesus and what he actually said.
That statement is a lie. It's a sin for a Christian to tell a lie.
Indeed the latter is true, but the burden is upon you as the accuser to establish that it is. Saying they follow God is meaningless, as to do so presumes He has made His will known, and what RCs follow as that source is the issue. Either RCs follow Scripture of another source first, or they follow what their church says first.
According to papal teaching, is the one duty for Catholics to follow the RC pastors as docile sheep?
Should Church law be held as the supreme Law?
Can one assuredly know what Scripture and tradition consist of and mean apart from faith that the instruments and stewards of Divine revelation is the trustworthy authoritative source on that?
What is the basis for RC assurance that Catholic teaching is correct: that of the degree of evidential warrant or the premise of ensured magisterial veracity?
Claiming what I posted is what catholics believe doesn't make it so. Catholicism is an installment plan salvation. I did not show you an installment plan, I showed you where the Bible prove Salvation is immediate, evidenced by God's Spirit coming into believers immediately upon their believing the same profession Peter uttered to Jesus.
catholicism does not allow adherents to believe they're born from above as soon as they place their faith in Christ. It may allow the adherent to believe they have been started along the installment plan toward obtaining salvation, and the rest of the installments are through the sacraments and then purgatory. These are contradictory to what the Bible teaches and ILLUSTRATES.
Justification is not something you can obtain by following an installment plan of sacraments and bead reading and confessionals and Brown scalpuli wor and kissed. It is by Grace you are Justified through Faith in Jesus Christ. The truly repentant heart God will in no wise cast out and His response to such an heart is immediate, as evidenced again at Pentecost and in the house of Cornelius.
Once you are Justified you are IMMEDIATELY adopted into God's family, born from above to never ever be out of His family BY HIS PROMISE TO THOSE WHO BELIEVE in He Whom God sent to be Savior and Lord. This is not what your religion teaches. Be honest. You know this is not what your catholic religion teaches.
I have asked twice for a catholic apologist to post a list of the things which catholicism requires in order be 'born from above'. She will not post a list. Will you? Will you honestly post a list of catholic requirements for Salvation and tell us honestly if Salvation is immediate by the Washing Of Regeneration through the blood of Christ?
And if you will be honest, look then at the blasphemy of the catholic Mass which asserts to the adherents that the priest bring Jesus Christ down from Heaven to be body, blood, soul and divinity, truly real and substantial in the wafer the priest is holding up for the adherents to say amen to.
Jesus shed His blood. He was not a victim. Yet the Catechism states that the priest at Mass places the victim on the catholic altar, as if the real Jesus Christ has been magically transported to the earth for consumption by those present at the Mass. Jesus refutes this foolery by telling His Disciples He will not set foot on Earth again until the Second Coming, at the end of the Great Tribulation.
And this notion of purgatory is also a blasphemy against what Scriptures teach clearly. The catholic church claims Mary can shorten your time in purgatory, that fingering the 59 beads of the Rosary can influence Mary to shorten your time in purgatory. That you can pray and do penance for those whoa re supposedly in purgatory and shorten their time there. This is utter paganism writ large in cahtolicism.
Catholic apologists deny that they are taught to worship Mary. But what else is it when the catechisms of your religion assert she is a mediatrix and co-redemptrix with Christ Jesus and that you can and should pray to her for whatever. Yes, these heresies are in the catholic catechism.
Your chosen religion is not Christianity, it is cahtolicism. Your religion teaches a different Jesus from the Bible. Your religion teaches pagan demigoddess servitude. That gentle man, John Paul II dedicated his pontificate to Mary, not Jesus, to Mary!
Cahtolicism is a religion posing as Christianity but is far from God's heart. The poor deluded adherents, sincere though they are, do not have Eternal Life in the now, for they are being taught it must come to them in installments, administered by the church authority. Not God's authority, the church's authority, which is wholly based in magic thinking and magic rites not delivered by God to men.
No matter how devout, if catholics continue to adhere to the blasphemous catholic ism they will die in their sins and there is no such magical cleaner as purgatory to remove the condemnation they will dive into their graves with. BUT God in His mercy has allowed time yet to obtain Salvation IMMEDIATELY and be born from above top have His Life in you forever more. Jesus died and rose again Once for All, Forever. He is not sacrificed a victim day after day in catholic Mass of wafers.
You have posed the question in such a twisted fashion that you can easily attack it: “When you say this do you mean that one cannot sin or that there are no longer any consequences to his sins?” You KNOW even the Justified person born from above will not live a perfect lie by THE LAW. The law of sin and death has however been covered by the Sacred Blood of Jesus Christ on the Mercy Seat OVER the laws. As Paul wrote so plainly, which you would find a point to rejoice over if you believed it: ‘There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.’ That ‘in Christ Jesus is an immediate event by the Grace of God over your faith in Jesus as Savior and Lord. You cannot earn any part of that, for you cannot do any work of righteousness on the calculus level of God’s righteousness without His Life in you.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
You say you will go with what Jesus said? Yet you have not a clue what the Bema Seat of Christ in HEAVEN is all about because you keep conflating the state of the unregenerate with the being raised up in the Way that we born from above must go in God’s family. Those Jesus spoke of in matthew 7 are precisely what the deluded devout lost catholics will say when they try to bring their works to Jesus as proof of their faith in Him. None of the works will have the level of righteousness of God so they will not be works of repentance but rather pride. You should understand that, if you are diligently seeking Him.
Eternal damnation is a very personal thing. I’ll try to stay in the generic, but it gets really difficult to do when posters twist words to be their servants or misdirection rather than their aides in true discussion.
Jesus shed His blood. He was not a victim.
The definition of "victim" from Merriam-Webster:
1: a living being sacrificed to a deity or in the performance of a religious riteNotice definition 1:2: one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent <the schools are victims of the social system>: as
a (1) : one that is injured, destroyed, or sacrificed under any of various conditions <a victim of cancer> <a victim of the auto crash> <a murder victim> (2) : one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment <a frequent victim of political attacks>
b : one that is tricked or duped <a con man's victim>
And satan has catholics affirming that their magic priesthood can keep making this sacrifice at every Mass, that they can bring Jesus The Christ down from Heaven at every Mass, to be the victim to be consumed by those present at the Mass. THAT is paganism writ all over the blasphemous face of cahtolicism.. Amazing the disconnect that can be made in order to cling to heresies as a means for salvation.
No and no.
It means sin does not control us any more, that we have the ability to say no to sinning. As long as we’re in this body, we can sin because the flesh is still with us.
Yes, one can sin if one chooses to sin and nobody ever said or suggested that there are no consequences to sin. Sin always has consequences but God will not take away our salvation for it, rather He disciplines us.
Catholics seem to think, at least I’ve never met any one who thinks differently on it, that the only consequence to sin is the loss of salvation. They are mentally stuck in that paradigm.
It seems to be beyond their comprehension that a saved person can sin and still be saved.
The reality is, that another consequence to sin is God’s discipline. That’s what He uses on His children. He doesn’t disown them for their sin.
Selah! Here is wisdom.
Which goes to prove that works cannot save anyone.
Those people are appealing to their works to save them.
Amen! You speak the truth.
Do you have a list of the things a catholic must do to obtain Salvation?
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