Posted on 06/12/2015 6:18:39 AM PDT by ADSUM
All pardon for sins ultimately comes from Christ’s finished work on Calvary, but how is this pardon received by individuals? Did Christ leave us any means within the Church to take away sin? The Bible says he gave us two means.
(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.com ...
Your question: “Can you show where this is supported in the Word?”
Luke 23 Do you remember the story of the good thief who died next to Jesus?
* Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.” 40The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation? 41And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.”v 42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”w 43He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
And now your question:
How does Jesus actions support the Roman Empire?
The good thief being asked to be remembered is not baptism and is a false assertion of what the Word is saying. If anything it would be a profession of faith by the thief.
That he spoke up for Jesus is not a "work". That is not what saved him. It would have been the belief in Christ that did.
He had little choice in whether he accepted his punishment. Rome was going to execute him for his crimes. What his words indicate is he did recognize he was a criminal and he is receiving the punishment for his crimes.
His crimes had nothing to do with the catholic position of mortal or venial sins.
Again, not everything in written in the Bible, Catholics follow tradition as we were commanded by God.
Can you show clearly in the Word where we are told to follow tradition? And keep it in the context of the passage.
No Christian has ever claimed everything about Christ or the disciples has been written down. What Christians do reject is the catholic reliance on tradition and equating it with equal authority of the written Word.
If you allow for the acceptance of "tradition" you open up the door to Mormons, Islam, the Hindu, etc.
Catholic tradition has also introduced all of the false teachings on Mary.
This is why Christians reject the roman catholic appeal to tradition. So much of it goes against the written Word.
It is clear that the oral teaching of Christ would last until the end of time. “’But the word of the Lord abides for ever.’ That word is the good news which was preached to you” (1 Pet. 1:25). Note that the word has been “preached”—that is, communicated orally. This would endure. It would not be supplanted by a written record like the Bible (supplemented, yes, but not supplanted), and would continue to have its own authority.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ (Romans 10:17).
The Word is usually preached orally as we witness every Sunday. I don't think any disagree with this.
The message the disciples preached was the Gospel. We have the written word for that. John notes it twice.
The NT books were written for different reasons....but in all cases they point to Christ and how to have a relationship with Him.
We have no need of any additional "tradition" to share the Gospel...especially when the "tradition" that is being espoused goes against the Word.
AMEN!
As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18
• Augustine, sermon:
"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer. — John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327
Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.
• Augustine, sermon:
For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)
• Augustine, sermon:
And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289
• Augustine, sermon:
Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95
• Augustine, sermon:
...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193
• Augustine, Psalm LXI:
Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)
• Augustine, in “Retractions,”
In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.
I know of One sacrifice that saved me.
YMMV
You an OLD dude!
you shoulda been there!
Your comment: “Can you show clearly in the Word where we are told to follow tradition? And keep it in the context of the passage. “
Tradition is based on the Word of God, the oral teachings of Jesus and does not contradict the Bible.
1Peter1 25 “ but the word of the Lord remains forever.”
Mark 13:24-32Heaven and earth will pass away,
but my words will not pass away.
“I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2).
“Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us” (2 Tim. 1:13-14).
“So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.” (2 Thess. 2:15)
“You, then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:1-2).
“First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God” (2 Peter 1:20-21).
“‘Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete” (2 John 12).
From Catholic Answers:
The Catholic Church bases her teaching upon one source: The word of God. This divine revelation is transmitted in two ways: through Scripture and apostolic tradition. Many assume that only the writings of the apostles are the word of God. However, their oral transmission of the faith is also considered the word of God (1 Thess. 2:13). Few Protestant groups today accept the validity, let alone the authority, of tradition. In fact, many believe that Scripture is the only definitive source of divine truth. For this reason, they are critical of certain doctrines of the Catholic Church, which, according to them, have no basis in Scripture. In fact, those who embrace the theory of sola scriptura attempt to use the Bible to contradict, to prove baseless, certain Church teachings, such as the Real Presence and the existence of purgatory.
Your comment: “That he spoke up for Jesus is not a “work”. That is not what saved him. It would have been the belief in Christ that did. “
That the good thief spoke was an action proclaiming his faith to Christ and to others. Yes his faith in Christ saved him, yet his spoken word (action – Webster’s “ a thing done”) confirmed his faith. Baptism is the profession of faith that is the entry point of following Christ.
According to the Apostle Paul, the believer enters through Baptism into communion with Christ’s death, is buried with him, and rises with him.
Your comment:”Catholic tradition has also introduced all of the false teachings on Mary. This is why Christians reject the roman catholic appeal to tradition.”
Prove it! Based on facts and not your personal opinion.
Your comment: “We have no need of any additional “tradition” to share the Gospel...especially when the “tradition” that is being espoused goes against the Word. “
Again, you have no facts that support this false statement.
It seems to me that many ignore some of the words of God that are in the Bible. Perhaps they are false followers of Jesus based on their own viewpoints and not God’s word and teachings.
Prove that it came from the apostles and that it was handed down faithfully, without error.
John 20:30-31 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
1 John 5:13-15 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life. And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.
And note that they were WRITTEN down.
It does support the preaching of the Word. No one denies the word was, and still is spread by preaching. It is also spread by reading.
In fact, those who embrace the theory of sola scriptura attempt to use the Bible to contradict, to prove baseless, certain Church teachings, such as the Real Presence and the existence of purgatory.
We have asked numerous times on this board for catholics to give us clear writings where the apostles passed on teachings on the assumption of Mary, her immaculate conception, purgatory, indulgences, the papacy, the office of cardinal, archbishop, etc.
To date none have been able to.
The rise of many false teachings also prompted this need.
And as we can see from catholic "tradition" with mariology, the Mormon Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants, the Koran, the written Word is still needed.
The word IS Truth and the very means of determining all truth claims.
All those who cast doubt on the veracity and integrity of God’s word are doing the work of the enemy.
*Did God REALLY say...?*
Telling people what God gave us to lead to Him isn’t enough? God didn’t do a good enough job so men need to come along and *fix* it.
What audacity!
MM responds
Everyone sins ALL THE TIME.
There's nobody who only sins occasionally. That shows an incredible depth of deception in the mind about level of sin in one's life.
Wow ....I agree MM....One of my favorite quotes (but can not find the source) is.. "My holiness prayer is sin before God"... that is breathtaking to think on.. How much of our prayer is without giving God the glory to which He is worthy ? How much is selfish , self centered , demanding ??
We walk in a muddy world...and our feet get dirty daily.. Thank God we have a Savior that washed away that sin
I go boldly to the Throne of God ...just as He taught us to do.. and I go with that assurance that He has already washed that sin away
Prove it! Based on facts and not your personal opinion.
You will note these are all catholic sources.
The immaculate conception, by admission of catholic apologists, cannot be found or be supported by Scripture.
No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture.
http://www.catholic.org/encyclopedia/view.php?id=6056
>In "Glories of Mary" by Liguori, whose writings were declared free from anything meriting censure by Pope Gregory XVI (1839) in the bull of his canonization, he teaches,
Beware, chosen soul, of thinking that it is more perfect to direct your work and intention straight to Jesus or straight to God. Without Mary, your work and your intention will be of little value. But if you go to God through Mary, your work will become Mary's work, and consequently will be most noble and most worthy of God. - THE SECRET OF MARY, St. Louis de Montfort; http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/SECRET.HTM
..."Limitless is the difference between God's servants and His Mother...Your honor and dignity surpass the whole of creation; your greatness places you above the angels...from her union with Christ she attains a radiant eminence transcending that of any other creature; from her union with Christ she receives the royal right to dispose of the treasures of the Divine Redeemer's Kingdom;... she intercedes powerfully for us with a mother's prayers, obtains what she seeks, and cannot be refused....Theologians and preachers...must beware of unfounded opinions and exaggerated expressions which go beyond the truth." [an in-credible injunction if Scripture is to be held as the Truth, as going beyond the Truth us exactly what Pope Pius XII is doing. But Scripture is not the supreme authority for Rome, but is made into a servant for her purposes, and Truth to Rome can be whatever she autocratically declares.] — Ad Caeli Reginam, Encyclical of Pope Pius XII; http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam_en.html
Mary can be declared by the Church to be not only the “helpmate” of that Second Divine Person — Co-Redemptrix in Salvation, Mediatrix in grace — but actually “like unto Him.”...when she acts, it is also He who acts; and that if her intervention be not accepted, neither is His.... Her position as "the first of all creatures, the most acceptable child of God, the nearest and dearest to him," (Cardinal Newman); As Mother of God, says Lepicier, Mary contracts a certain affinity with the Father; · The pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father, which has fitted her to pour out into the world the everlasting light which issues from that loving Father.... He has no children but by her, and communicates no graces but by her...and through her alone does He dispense His favours and His gifts. A Marian Synthesis; http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/msynthesis.htm
Catholics appeal to the Didache as well which has many teachings that contradict the Word or are not found in the Word.
7:4 Before the baptism, both the baptizer and the candidate for baptism, plus any others who can, should fast. The candidate should fast for one or two days beforehand.
8:1 Your fasts should not be with the hypocrites, for they fast on Mondays and Thursdays. You should fast on Wednesdays and Fridays.
Regarding teachers.... 11:5 But he must not remain more than one day, or two, if there's a need. If he stays three days, he is a false prophet. (Guess Paul was a false prophet as he stayed longer than three days in his travel to Corinth!)
http://www.paracletepress.com/didache.html
The Catholic Church with 2000 years of history has stated that the teachings are from God.
You need to prove otherwise and you can’t. You can have your personal opinion that can be in error.
Prove that your opinions are not from the devil.
That was likely an ecclesiastical gift to the church ..allowing the church to excommunicate those from their presence at the Lords supper.. for we never see any of those present when that gift was given hearing and 'forgiving " the sins of men , but we do see people removed from the body of the NT church ..
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