Posted on 05/22/2015 4:54:44 PM PDT by OK Sun
I have been taught Dispensationalism from my mother’s womb. I was born in a dispensational environment. It was assumed at my church to be a part of the Gospel. There was never another option presented. It made sense. It helped me put together the Scriptures in a way that cleared up so much confusion. And, to be honest, the emphasis on the coming tribulation, current events that prove the Bible’s prophecy, the fear that the Antichrist may be alive today (who is he?) was all quite exciting. But what might be the biggest attraction for me is the charts! Oh how I love charts. I think in charts. And dispensationalism is a theology of charts!
The first time I came across someone who was not a Dispensationalist was in 1999. I am not kidding. It was the first time! I don’t think I even knew if there was another view. It was when I was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary (the bastion of Dispensationalism) and I was swimming with some guys who were at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Once they discovered I was a dispensationalist, they giggled and snickered. They made fun of the rapture, the sacrificial system during the millennium, and the mark of the beast (which, at that time, was some type of barcode). It was as if they patted me on the head and said “It’s okay . . . nice little dispensationalist.” I was so angry. I was humiliated. I was a second-rate theologian. They were “Covenantalists” (whatever that was). But they were the cool guys who believed in the historic Christian faith and I was the cultural Christian, believing in novel ideas.
(Excerpt) Read more at reclaimingthemind.org ...
There are not two Gospels, there are two different paths that reach the same Gospel, that which Peter had to be led along and that which Jesus 'estonied' Saul with. There is only the One Gospel. The Catholic Church History might be an excellent example of how God is gentle and long suffering to bring us to a full knowledge ... the many mistakes done by the Catholic hierarchy, done in the name of 'The Church' and working for Jesus, and yet it is that same ekklesia which God has used to bring the Scriptures as they are to us today. And make no mistake here, God is able to have the Bible He wants for us today. And He is long suffering to allow errors to be made in translation that get revealed later in the church age so as to silence heresies ... like the mistranslation of apostasia, used as a wedge between Protestant revolutionaries and the Catholic Church to mean everything from breaking away from mother Church to falling away from the Gospel; but apostasia as used in the day that word made it into the Scriptures meant 'departing'.
I am in agreement with HER because the Scriptures show that it is a fact Peter had to be brought along a winding path to reach the same Gospel preached by Paul.
I did not forget. I assumed he allowed for your reference error and wanted to know if he agreed with your error of substance when you wrote that " "Israel is blinded and set aside in Acts 29"[edit: should be 28]
The error of substance is more troubling than the error of reference, capitalization, mind reading, etc.
Just to piggyback on your last post...
Acts 10:44-48 (AMP)
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell on all who were listening to the message.
45 And the believers from among the circumcised [the Jews] who came with Peter were surprised and amazed, because the free gift of the Holy Spirit had been bestowed and poured out largely even on the Gentiles.
46 For they heard them talking in [unknown] tongues (languages) and extolling and magnifying God. Then Peter asked,
47 Can anyone forbid or refuse water for baptizing these people, seeing that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?
48 And he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (the Messiah). Then they begged him to stay on there for some days.
Peter preaches the Word to Cornelius and his relatives. It must have been one heck of a sermon, because the Holy Spirit was poured on them with evidence that was heard by, and “surprised” the Jews with Peter.
Now here is where you must put on the theological big boy britches. Why did Peter want to baptize them in water? What could mere water, an outward ordinance, do for someone already filled with the Holy Spirit? This dovetails nicely with your previous point about John’s baptism.
Note also the religious division still actively recognized. There is not ONE BODY IN CHRIST at this time.
smvoice's comment regarding Israel in the last Catholic chapter of Acts is erroneous. The same day went Jesus out of the house, and sat by the sea side. And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore. And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Matthew, Catholic chapter thirteen, Protestant verses one to seventeen,
as authorized, but not authored by, King James
And since that gospel was given by Christ to Paul to preach, and Paul had not yet given this information to the 12, then the gospel THEY preached could NOT have been the gospel of the grace of God. It could only have been the gospel of the kingdom. :)
It doesn't take Columbo to figure this out. Just READ what the word SAYS, Not what you THINK it says..
You have a doctrinal problem. You already agreed with smvoice's doctrine and teaching after she post 242 to you and others.
" The Book of Galatians helps tremendously in this area. Particularly Chap. 2:5-10. Paul tells of his journey to Jerusalem again where he met with at least James, Cephas (Peter) and John. In verse 2 Paul states clearly that he went there by revelation (from Jesus Christ, obviously), in order to communicate to them THAT GOSPEL WHICH HE PREACHED AMONG THE GENTILES. Obviously, if it was the same gospel that Peter and the 11 had been commissioned to preach, Paul would not have described his at THAT GOSPEL. If he differentiating, there HAS to be more than one gospel."
More errors of bias
Acts 10:30-43And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing, And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance in the sight of God. Send therefore to Joppa, and call hither Simon, whose surname is Peter; he is lodged in the house of one Simon a tanner by the sea side: who, when he cometh, shall speak unto thee.
Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God.
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that fear
eth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:) That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
When the Scribes ask Jesus what they must do as the work God commands for Salvation and when Peter answered the call to evangelize, the message is the same, to believe on Him Whom God has sent, The Christ, the Lamb Slain from the foundation of the world, the Lord from Heaven, God with us ... so, where is the lengthy list of doctrinologies from Catholic and Protestant traditions? None present int he House of Cornelius that I can find. None stacked next to Jesus when He answered the Scribes and Pharisees. So where is boasting?
To Saul as Paul was given the fullness of the Gospel, the eschatological and hermeneutic and ekklesiology. To Peter was given the keys to open the Church Age ... where is boasting?
pingalingaling
Thank you for not writing lengthy responses in blue. These old eyes don’t even try to follow that.
Translation of apostasia in bold below (could also add other Septuagint translations from Hebrew where apostasia is used for revolt; it is not used for a rapture): In the mean while the king's officers, such as compelled the people to revolt, came into the city Modin, to make them sacrifice. And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
First Maccabees, Catholic chapter two, Protestant verse fifteen,
Acts, Catholic chapter twenty one, Protestant verse twenty one,
Second Thessalonians, Catholic chapter two, Protestant verse three,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
God uses DISTINCTIVE terms to designate the various items of good news, gospels. There is "the gospel of the kingdom" (Matt. 9:35), "the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24), "the gospel of the circumcision" (Gal. 2:7), the "gospel of the uncircumcision" (Gal. 2:7).
SURELY if GOD distinguishes between these gospels (good news) they CANNOT BE EXACTLY THE SAME.
God has revealed His good news (gospels) to man progressively. From Adam and Eve to Abraham to Moses to David to the prophets to John the Baptist to Matt Mark Luke John. The gospel He shared with Adam and Eve was that the woman's seed should some day crush the head of the Serpent (Gen. 3:15).
The good news (gospel) that He preached to Abraham that in him (Abraham) all nations should be blessed.(Gal. 3:8).
On and on through OT Scriptures God proclaims more and more good news to man.
And it does not change with the NT. The Lord sent His apostles to proclaim "the gospel (good news) of the kingdom" (Luke 9:1-6). But note: At the time they were given this, they did NOT EVEN KNOW that Christ was to die. (Luke 18:31-34.
The gospel of the kingdom is the good news that the Kingdom, once prophesied, was at hand. This gospel takes us back to David, with whom the covenant of the kingdom was made. This is preached by the 12 during Christ's time on earth and after His crucifixion and until Israel is blinded (temporarily) and set aside (Acts. 28). And it will be preached again during the tribulation and the return of Jesus Christ to set up His millennial Kingdom.
What is the good news (gospel) of the circumcision? This gospel (good news) takes us back BEFORE David to Abraham, with whom the covenant of circumcision was made. (Gen. 17:11)
The gospel of the uncircumcision takes us back BEFORE David and Abraham to ABRAM who, as an UNCIRCUMCISED HEATHEN, was JUSTIFIED BY FAITH.
The gospel of the grace of God is based solely on grace, no difference between Jew and Gentile, no relation to ordinances or signs (1 Cor. 6:11, Phil. 3:3) Col, 2:9-12) and first committed to Paul.(1 Tim. 1:16).
So are they all the same? Or are they different as God's word to man progressed, so did His good news (Gospels)?
But there MUST be a thread that links them together. Something that, although each good news (gospel) is a further revelation from God, still resides in each one, even if it is not revealed at the time it is given. It is: the GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD. That was first committed to Paul. It is in THIS good news (gospel) that the summit of God's revelation resides.
How can we know this? "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ ACCORDING TO MY GOSPEL." (Rom. 2:16). The "MY GOSPEL" is Paul's gospel. THis is where the Bible led up to and was and is and will always be. THIS GOSPEL, the GOOD NEWS that Christ died for our sins, was buried, and rose again the third day (1 Cor. 15:2-4); that "by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph. 2:8,9).
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Do those verses say that Jesus will raise us up, or do they say that we have already been raised up???
You claim you believe the scriptures but what you expound proves otherwise...
The last trump will be the physical resurrection of those dead AND alive in Jesus Christ...
Peter is the apostle to the circumsision. It seems that Peter is refering to a letter that Paul wrote to them. and links it to other scripture.
The last trump will be a spiritual resurrection for the dead, and a change for those that are alive who will be converted to a spiritual body.
Can you claim to be resurrected to the kingdom now?
Do you live disease free? Are you immortal in your present state? Can you travel through walls?
Or are you reading way too much into Eph 2?
It has to be one or the other.
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Peter declared the epistle to the Hebrews to have been written by Paul.
It was rather obscure, and most gloss right over it when they read it.
Another thing is Paul’s style of using the term “my gospel.”
If you read through chapters 3 and four, witch are inseparable, it is a clear statement that their gospels are identical. He declares that the difference between their successes was the lack of faith on the part of those that fell in the desert.
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