Posted on 05/03/2015 10:03:13 AM PDT by marshmallow
Alfonso Sánchez Hermosilla, Spanish doctor in forensic medicine, stated this at the annual conference of the International Centre of Syndonology, which took place in Turin today
All the information obtained from the studies and research” carried out on the Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Oviedo “is in tune with what one would expect - from a forensic medicine point of view - to happen to cloths with these characteristics were they to cover the head of a body featuring the kind of lesions Jesus of Nazareth suffered, just as the Gospels tell us.” Alfonso Sánchez Hermosilla, Doctor in Forensic Medicine, stated this at a conference held by the International Centre of Syndonology in Turin today. The conference looked at updates to the “main themes” regarding the Shroud.
The conference was not open to the public but reserved for members of the Centre, though this year the invitation was extended to groups and organisations, based in various parts of the world, that work with the Centre in Turin. More than 300 scholars and experts came from France, England, Spain, Peru, Mexico, Brazil and Bolivia. “Once again, it is not the authenticity of the Shroud that is at the centre of the debate and various speeches,” explained Gian Maria Zaccone, scientific director of the Museum of the Holy Shroud. “The point of this meeting is to discuss updates regarding certain areas of Shroud research which require further examination. For example, the role of pollen research and the significance of historical and informatics research on the Shroud.”
Sánchez Hermosilla, director of the Research Team of the Spanish Centre for Syndonology (EDICES) was among the experts who spoke at the conference. Hermosilla is the forensic expert who took over the study of the Oviedo Sudarium from Mgr. Giulio Ricci, who began examining it....
(Excerpt) Read more at vaticaninsider.lastampa.it ...
You are a wise man!
None of your citations are peer reviewed.
Please cite them, because the three papers you've produced are not in peer reviewed journals.
I don't have a lot of experience carrying bodies but I don't see many pictures of two or more people carrying bodies face down. It does happen but for the most part, bodies in the pictures I see being moved are face up.
Nothing has been falsified, except in the minds of pseudoscientists and their camp-followers. The "peer reviewed" papers you've produced were produced by the advocates for the authenticity of the Shroud, and refute nothing.
The Shroud is a fake, has been proven to be a fake, and was indeed denounced as a fake when it first appeared. Contrary to the silly claims made by STURP and its adherents, there is nothing special about the Shroud forgery. It could easily have been produced by ordinary means available at the time it was forged (sometime around 1360.)
Thanks for the ping!
It is obvious you are a skeptics skeptic. Nothing will touch your iron clad mind. . . if there is a mind inside that lead thick skull. If it could be easily have been produced by ordinary means available at the time in 1360? OK, How? You've proposed other trash theories before . . . and they are all easily shot down. Because YOU can't tell us how it is "so easily done" because you don't know. YOU just make trash claims without knowing a thing.
No, it is obvious you don't have much experience carrying bodies at all. It is easier to carry a body face down. Arms fold easier forward, not backwards, as do legs. The are intended to fold forward, not backwards. Arms and legs are stiff backwards and flop forward. Arms and legs lock when tried to be pulled backwards making it much easier to carry for fewer people. Sorry, again, this has been concluded by some of the most experienced and expert forensic pathologists in the world. Why not listen and learn something instead of looking for objections?
Ray Rogers article certainly was published in a PEER REVIEWED journal. "Thermochimica Acta" is a peer reviewed scientific journal, just because YOU claim it is not, which you have done several times before, does not make it your claim true.
"Thermochimica ActaAn International Journal Concerned with All Aspects of Thermoanalytical and Calorimetric Methods and their Application to Experimental Chemistry, Physics, Biology and Engineering
Thermochimica Acta publishes original research contributions covering all aspects of thermoanalytical and calorimetric methods and their application to experimental chemistry, physics, biology and engineering... — SOURCE — Thermochimica Acta - ScienceDirect.com —The online version of Thermochimica Acta at ScienceDirect.com, the world's leading platform for high quality peer-reviewed full-text journals.
So much for your claims of Pseudoscientists. We've run down your cited scientists on the skeptical side before, every one of them working outside their fields of expertise. . . and their head skeptic, Joe Nickell, with his degree in English Literature. . . who challenged three world class experts on Blood, blood porphoryns, a hemoglobin and its derivatives by claiming these scientists and their over 40 specific tests published in peer-reviewed journals claiming that they had identified old denatured methemoglobin and human blood derivatives, were actually mischaracterizing what Nickell claims in his non-peer reviewed skeptics magazine is really chicken egg albumin, Red Ochre, Tempera paint. LOL!
You will not accept anything I provide as a peer reviewed journal or any of work of the scientists I present because you dismiss any of them as pseudoscientists no matter what work on the Shroud they do IN THEIR FIELDS, because they worked on the Shroud is for you evidence of their pseudoscientific bent. That is your insanity, you will not accept any one who disagrees with your position. . . and have to denigrate them by denying them their expertise. AND you elevate those who do agree with you far beyond any expertise they can possibly claim merely because they do agree with you.
Just like the last claim you made about none of those citations being from peer reviewed journals. I just needed ONE to shoot your lie down. So I proved one was from a fully qualified peer-reviewed scientific peer reviewed journal, and you are proved a liar, like most of the skeptical "scientists" who make claims like yours that the Shroud can easily be created by techniques available in 1360. I am not going to do any more.
Here’s my thing ... not that anyone cares.
Let’s say it is from the 1st century, for the sake of argument.
What is the evidence that it was Jesus’ impression in the shroud?
How about testimony from Ray Rogers, the scientist who gathered the 1988 samples and helped conduct the testing?
That’s not a study. It’s a comment.
Yes, Thermochimica Acta is ONE peer reviewed journal. [Although you did NOT cite the source when you quoted the paper.]
Nevertheless, the Thermochimica Acta paper has been roundly criticized. Saying the carbon dating experiments are "falsified" on the basis of a paper that many scientists disagree with is simply ... a lie.
Nothing has been "falsified." Your claim of "falsification" is typical of the hysterical exaggerations made by pseudoscientific Shroud enthusiasts.
None.
Understood. But it is telling.
I am certain that is not exhaustive. . . I personally know of articles that are missing from that list. . . I think the only thing that was exhausted was the compiler. LOL!
The only scientific experiments ever conducted on "The Shroud," including carbon dating verified independently by three different laboratories, has found it to be EXACTLY what Bishop Henri of Poitiers' confirmed it to be in 1356: a fake.
This included tests based on polarized light microscopy before 1980, which proved that there is no blood on "The Shroud," and that the colors found on "The Shroud" were nothing more than paints common in the 14th century. These tests were confirmed in 1981 using X-ray diffraction, scanning electron microscopy and energy dispersive X-ray determinations. The "blood" elements present on "The Shroud" were iron, mercury and sulfur common in the two paints found by earlier investigators.
No scientific test ever conducted on "The Shroud" has ever determined it to be anything other than exactly what Pope Clement VII required it to be introduced as in veneration ceremonies throughout the Middle Ages: "A facsimile that is not the burial shroud of Jesus Christ."
"The Shroud" of Turin is just one of almost thirty known examples of burial cloths -- all purporting to be "real" -- and all produced during a time when the forgeries of venerated artifacts was a major industry in Christian Europe.
No analytical laboratory that has tested "The Shroud" has ever repudiated its own results. Your claim that the carbon dating has been "falsified" is anti-scientific baloney and nothing more.
That's the most hilarious thing you have claimed so far . . .
A partial list of Fred Zarguna's "Pseudoscientists":
The following people participated in STURP. Those marked with an asterisk (*) participated in Turin. Others studied materials and data after the 1978 examination. (Source, Barrie Schwortz):
- Dr. Joseph S. Accetta, PhD in Physics — specialized in optics, , now Principal Scientist and member of the research faculty at Georgia Tech Research Institute,
Fellow, Optical Engineering Society, Managing Editor, Directed Energy Professional Society, Editor, Journal of Directed Energy, Adjunct Research Faculty, New Mexico Tech., Adjunct Research Scientist, Department of Electrical Engineering, University of Michigan, Adjunct Professor of Electrical Engineering, Wayne State University, Chairman and Instructor, Advanced Infrared and Electro-Optics, University of Michigan, Past President, Ann Arbor Chapter, Optical Society of America, Executive Editor, Infrared and Electro-Optics Handbook, Editorial Board, The Journal of Infrared Physics and Technology, *- Dr. Steven Baumgart, PhD in Physics, specialized in spectrometry, U.S. Air Force Weapons Laboratories*
- Dr. John "Dee" German, PhD in Physics, Electro-Optical Engineering, U.S. Air Force Weapons Laboratories*, Assistant Professor of Physics at US Air Force Academy. (Agnostic at time of STURP)
- Ernest H. Brooks II, President of the Brooks Institute of Photography*,
Ambassador of the marine environment, photographer, adventurer, diver and educator, Ernest H. Brooks II was born to be a photographer. 

As the son of Ernest H. Brooks, founder of the internationally renowned Brooks Institute of Photography, Ernie Brooks was destined to follow in his father’s footsteps for part of his life’s journey before forging his own path. Throughout his long tenure as the head of Brooks Institute, he carried out the duties that come with that corporate territory including keynote speaking at international conventions, working with national and international organizations and companies to enhance the industry, and encouraging photographic education and promoting photography as a universal language.- Mark Evans, Staff expert, infrared and ultraviolet light photography, Brooks Institute of Photography*
- Vernon D. Miller, Director of the industrial/Scientific Photography Department, Brooks Institute of Photography*
- Dr. Robert Bucklin, M.D., J.D. Chief Forensic Pathologist, Harris County, Texas, Medical Examiner's Office
- Dr. Donald Devan, PhD in Physics, Systems analysis, Computerized image analysis, Oceanographic Services Inc.*
- Dr. Rudolph J. Dichtl, PhD in Physics, concentration in electricity and power, University of Colorado and the US Air Force Academy.*
- Dr. Robert Dinegar, PhD in Chemistry, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories, University of New Mexico at Los Alamos*
- Dr. Donald Janney, PhD in Nuclear Physics, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories. Laboratories*
- Dr. Joan Janney, PhD in Nuclear Physics, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories*
- Dr. J. Ronald London, PhD in Chemistry, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories*
- Dr. Roger A. Morris, PhD in Physics, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories*
- Dr. Ray N. Rogers, PhD in Chemistry, specialized Pyrology Chemistry, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories*
- Dr. Larry Schwalbe, PhD in Physics, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories
- Dr. Diane Soran, PhD in Biochemistry, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories
- Dr. Kenneth E. Stevenson, PhD in Ministry, Bachelor of Science, IBM corporate Pilot at time of STURP*
- Dr. Alan F. Adler, PhD X2 in Chemistry and BioChemistry, Emeritus Professor of Chemistry at Connecticut State University (Jewish)
- Dr. Thomas F. D'Muhala, PhD in Physics, Nuclear Technology Corporation*
- Dr. Jim Drusik, PhD in Anthropology, Curator Los Angeles County Museum
- Dr. Joseph Gambescia, M.D. Radiology, St. Agnes Medical Center
- Roger & Marty Gilbert, equipment techs for Oriel Corporation*
- Thomas Haverty, Specialist in therographic imaging< Rocky Mountain Thermograph*
- Dr. John P. Jackson, PhD in Physics specialized in Thermodynamics, Professor at the US Air Force Academy*
- Dr. Eric J. Jumper, PhD in Physics, Professor at the US Air Force Academy*
- Jean Lorre, Image Processing at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory*
- Dr. Donald J. Lynn, PhD in Physics, Image Processing at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory*
- Dr. Robert W. Mottern, PhD in Physics, Radiation specialist, Sandia National Laboratories*
- Dr. Samuel Pellicori, PhD Physics, xray spectrography. Santa Barbara Research Center*
- Barrie M. Schwortz, Recording photographer Barrie Schwortz Studios* (Orthodox Jew)
The following researchers worked on Shroud studies post the STURP team, but used much of the samples taken by STURP:
Now, Fred, are you going to tell us again, these are pseudoscientists warped in their scientific judgment by their religion? The only one who is a pseudoscientist on this thread, who ignores the science and refuses to accept where the science is leading is YOU who prefers to listen to nonsense non-scientists or to scientists working completely outside of their fields of expertise!
- Dr. John Heller, M.D., PhD, specializing in blood and blood descendants, Professor of Internal Medicine and Medical Physics at Yale University, Founder of the Reticuloendothelial Society and authored the textbook, “Reticuloendothelial Structure and Function”, in 1960. The reticuloendothelial system functions in both the generation and destruction of red blood cells. Dr. Heller’s expertise was centered in making physical and chemical measurements of this system. He relates in his book that he has tested for the presence of blood in capital cases for both the prosecution and defense. (Re)read the book and Dr Heller’s initial concerns about testing for trace amounts of aged blood are apparent. New England Institute
- Dr. Bruce Cameron, M.D., PhD X2 in Chemistry and Biochemistry, specializing in Porphyrins and Hemoglobyn in Human Blood.
- Dr. William Mecham, PhD in Anthropology and Archaeology,
- Dr. Alan D. Whanger, M.D.
- Dr. Walter C. McCrone, PhD in Chemistry, optical microscopy, McCrone Institute (Skeptic, Atheist)
- Dr. Avinoam David, PhD in Biology, Botany, and Palynology, Professor of Botany at Hebrew University in Jerusalem, Israel, World's Foremost expert on plants of the Israel and Levant area. (Jewish)
- Dr. Uri Baruch, PhD in Biology and Palynology, Israel Antiquities Authority, a palynologist and expert on Israel’s pollen.
- Dr. Max Frei, PhD, Forensic Criminologist and Microscopist, Palynologist, Swiss National Police.
- Dr. Frederick T. Zugibe, M.D., PhD, Forensic Pathologist, Chief Medical Examiner for Rockland County New York for 33 years.
Dr. Zugibe has published a definitive, widely used textbook in a specialized field of diagnostic pathology, called Diagnostic Histochemistry (C.V. Mosby Co.) which is utilized in medical centers throughout the world. He has published numerous papers and book chapters in the fields of forensic and general pathology. A new disease, Glycoprotein Storage Disease first described in the prestigious, American Journal of Medicine by Dr. Zugibe and co-author, Dr. Enid Gilbert, has been named the Zugibe-Gilbert Syndrome.- Dr. Kelly P. Kearse, PhD in Molecular Biology, Department of Microbiology and Immunology, East Carolina University School of Medicine, Greenville, NC.
- Professor Giuli Fant, PhD in Physics, Department of Mechanical Engineering, University of Padua, Via Venezia 1, 35137 Padova, Italy
- Thibault Heimburger, M.D., specialized in blood studies
- Dr. Pierluigi Baima Bollone, M.D. J.D., Surgeon, Forensic Specialist, Professor Forensic Medicine in the Faculty of Medicine and Law at the University of Turin-and now professor emeritus, continues to contract in his courses. He is the author of a successful Handbook of Forensic Medicine adopted in various Universities, now in its fifth edition, and 161 scientific publications. He has also written 24 books.
- Dr. Emanuela Marinelli, PhD in Anthropology, CISAS G. Colombo (Interdepartmental Center Space Studies and Activities) Department of Mechanical Engineering, University of Padua, Via Venezia 1, 35137 Padua, Italy
- Dr. Alessandro Cagnazzo, PhD in Anthropolgy , CISAS G. Colombo (Interdepartmental Center Space Studies and Activities) Department of Mechanical Engineering, University of Padua, Via Venezia 1, 35137 Padua, Italy.
- Dr. Isabel Piczek, PhD in Art History
- Donna Campbell MA in Technical Design, Thomas Ferguson Irish Linen.
- Dr. Lucia Tatolli, M.D. J.D., Professor of Forensic Science, Institute of Legal Medicine, University of Bari, Italy.
- Dr. Michael Tsokos, M.D., Professor of Forensic Science, Institute of Legal and Forensic Medicine, University of Berlin, Germany.
- Dr. Class Buschmann, M.D., Asst. Professor of Forensic Science, Institute of Legal and Forensic Medicine, University of Berlin, Germany.
- Dr. Peter Carr, PhD in Physics, lead investigator on many projects.
- Dr. Stephen Mattingly, PhD in Microbiology,Professor of Microbiology, University of Texas-San Antonio Health Science Center
- Dr. Gary Vikan, PhD in Art History, Director of the Prestigious Walters Art Gallery in Baltimore, Maryland.
- Dr. Paolo Di Lazzaro, PhD in Physics, ENEA, Department of Physical Technologies and New Materials, Frascati Research Center, via E. Fermi 45, 00044 Frascati, Italy.
- Dr. Danielle Murra, PhD in Physics, ENEA, Department of Physical Technologies and New Materials, Frascati Research Center, via E. Fermi 45, 00044 Frascati, Italy.
- Mr. Antonio Santoni, M.S.,Engineering, Department of Mechanical Engineering, University of Padua, via Venezia 1, 35131 Padua, Italy
- Dr. Enrico Nicholatti, PhD in Chemistry, ENEA, Department of Physical Technologies and New Materials, Casaccia Research Center, via Anguillarese 301, 00123 Rome, Italy
- Dr. Jefferson B. Williams, PhD in Geology,
- Dr. Dr. Emily A. Craig, PhD in Forensic Anthropology. Forensic Medical Examiner and Medical Illustrator, Kentucky State Medical Examiner's Office.
Dr. Craig is an internationally recognized expert in forensic anthropology, which includes three-dimensional reconstruction of human faces on skulls as well as the analysis of skeletal trauma and decomposition. Dr. Craig also has over 25 years of experience as a professional medical illustrator with national and international awards for painting, sculpture, and photography.- Dr. Randall R. Bresee, PhD in Art History, professor of textile science, University of Tennessee in Knoxville,
Dr. Bresee is an internationally recognized expert in the field of forensic textile analysis.- Dr. Warren S. Grundfest, M.D., F.A.C.S., Director, Laser Research and Technology Development Laboratory, Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, Los Angeles, California
- Dr. Marc Guscin, PhD in History, Languages
- Dr. Mechthild Flury-Lemberg, PhD in Art History specialized in textiles, Ghent Textiles Museum
- Professor Luigi Garlaschelli, PhD in Organic Chemistry, University di Pavia, Italy. (skeptic)
- Dr. John L. Brown, PhD in Chemistry, Principal Research Scientist,(Retired) Georgia Tech Research Institute, Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta, GA, USA
- Dr. Silvio Diana, PhD in History, Central Institute of Restoration, Rome
- Prof. Emanuela Marinelli Paolicchi, Doctor in Natural Sciences and Geological Sciences, Central Institute of Restoration, Rome
- Dr. August D. Accetta M.D, radiology
- Dr. Peter M. Schumacher, PhD in Physics, designer of the VP-8 Image Analyzer.
- Dr. Remi Van Haelst, PhD in Mathematics, Statistics
- Dr. Leo Bazant-Hegemark, PhD in History,
- Mr. Marcel Alonso, petroleum engineer, Geosciences Expert emeritus with Elf-Aquitaine, past Secretary of CIELT Scientific Committee, Administrator
- Dr. Leoncio Garza-Valdes, M.D.
- Mr. David Ford, BA in History, BA in Philosophy, University of Maryland Baltimore County
- Dr. Maria Grazia Siliato, PhDs in History and Archaeology, President of Associazione di Archeologia e Antichità Classiche e Paleocristiane di Roma, Italy
- Mr. Jack Kilmon, MS in Archaeology.
- Dr. Tristan Casablance, PhD in History, Université d'Aix-Marseille, France.
- Dr. Giovanni Fazio, PhD in Mathematics, Journal of Modern Mathematics Frontier (JMMF), Volume 2 Issue 3, September 2013.
- Dr. José L Fernández, PhD in Computer Science, Associate Professor and Independent Consultant Industrial Engineering School, Madrid Technical University Madrid-Spain
The late Dr. John Heller is quoted as saying about the study of the Shroud not being scientifically rigorous:
"No member of the team had worked in a vacuum. When confronted with a problem, he would discuss it with other colleagues at his own or other institutions. Each of the forty STURP members must have consulted at least ten other investigators who were not part of the Shroud team. Thus, at least four hundred scientists had added their input. In addition, all of us had given lectures before meetings of Sigma XI, the scientific society to which most research scientists belong, at chapter meetings of the American Chemical Society, at universities across the country and their alumni groups, such as MIT’s, at meetings of other scientific societies-from physical engineering to the medical sciences. From all of these we had received contributions of knowledge and suggestions.”
The majority of these people are TRUE scientists... who recorded every step of their research and submitted it for peer-review before publication of their conclusions. They checked and re-checked their work. They prepared protocols that were vetted by other members and changed where flaws or miscalculations were found. They were prepared to do good science. While some may have a religious background, many did not and others were from different faiths that would have nothing to gain by promoting Christianity.
Barrie Schwortz is Jewish, as are A. Adler, D. Lynn, and D. Devan, all members of STURP. In addition, some members were atheists, others agnostic, some Catholic, and some Protestant. They went with the expectation of proving it was a painting... and were proved wrong. Barrie states that he keeps asking himself "What's a nice Jewish boy like me, doing here?" He states that the researchers are following the science.
Harry Gove, inventor of the C-14 test used to age test the Shroud, never confused for being pro-Shroud, wrote a letter to David Wilson of the British Museum as the dating process was unfolding saying that it was “a shoddy enterprise” Finally, Christopher Bronk Ramsey, director of the Oxford Lab that directed the 1988 C-14 test of the Shroud of Turin says he is open to the possibility there were errors in the testing. . . especially in the sample protocols. At least he is honest.
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