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Peter and the Papacy
Catholic Answers ^

Posted on 05/01/2015 2:36:22 PM PDT by NYer

There is ample evidence in the New Testament that Peter was first in authority among the apostles. Whenever they were named, Peter headed the list (Matt. 10:1-4, Mark 3:16-19, Luke 6:14-16, Acts 1:13); sometimes the apostles were referred to as "Peter and those who were with him" (Luke 9:32). Peter was the one who generally spoke for the apostles (Matt. 18:21, Mark 8:29, Luke 12:41, John 6:68-69), and he figured in many of the most dramatic scenes (Matt. 14:28-32, Matt. 17:24-27, Mark 10:23-28). On Pentecost it was Peter who first preached to the crowds (Acts 2:14-40), and he worked the first healing in the Church age (Acts 3:6-7). It is Peter’s faith that will strengthen his brethren (Luke 22:32) and Peter is given Christ’s flock to shepherd (John 21:17). An angel was sent to announce the resurrection to Peter (Mark 16:7), and the risen Christ first appeared to Peter (Luke 24:34). He headed the meeting that elected Matthias to replace Judas (Acts 1:13-26), and he received the first converts (Acts 2:41). He inflicted the first punishment (Acts 5:1-11), and excommunicated the first heretic (Acts 8:18-23). He led the first council in Jerusalem (Acts 15), and announced the first dogmatic decision (Acts 15:7-11). It was to Peter that the revelation came that Gentiles were to be baptized and accepted as Christians (Acts 10:46-48). 

 

Peter the Rock

Peter’s preeminent position among the apostles was symbolized at the very beginning of his relationship with Christ. At their first meeting, Christ told Simon that his name would thereafter be Peter, which translates as "Rock" (John 1:42). The startling thing was that—aside from the single time that Abraham is called a "rock" (Hebrew: Tsur; Aramaic: Kepha) in Isaiah 51:1-2—in the Old Testament only God was called a rock. The word rock was not used as a proper name in the ancient world. If you were to turn to a companion and say, "From now on your name is Asparagus," people would wonder: Why Asparagus? What is the meaning of it? What does it signify? Indeed, why call Simon the fisherman "Rock"? Christ was not given to meaningless gestures, and neither were the Jews as a whole when it came to names. Giving a new name meant that the status of the person was changed, as when Abram’s name was changed to Abraham (Gen.17:5), Jacob’s to Israel (Gen. 32:28), Eliakim’s to Joakim (2 Kgs. 23:34), or the names of the four Hebrew youths—Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah to Belteshazzar, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego (Dan. 1:6-7). But no Jew had ever been called "Rock." The Jews would give other names taken from nature, such as Deborah ("bee," Gen. 35:8), and Rachel ("ewe," Gen. 29:16), but never "Rock." In the New Testament James and John were nicknamed Boanerges, meaning "Sons of Thunder," by Christ, but that was never regularly used in place of their original names, and it certainly was not given as a new name. But in the case of Simon-bar-Jonah, his new name Kephas (Greek: Petros) definitely replaced the old. 

 

Look at the scene

Not only was there significance in Simon being given a new and unusual name, but the place where Jesus solemnly conferred it upon Peter was also important. It happened when "Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi" (Matt. 16:13), a city that Philip the Tetrarch built and named in honor of Caesar Augustus, who had died in A.D. 14. The city lay near cascades in the Jordan River and near a gigantic wall of rock, a wall about 200 feet high and 500 feet long, which is part of the southern foothills of Mount Hermon. The city no longer exists, but its ruins are near the small Arab town of Banias; and at the base of the rock wall may be found what is left of one of the springs that fed the Jordan. It was here that Jesus pointed to Simon and said, "You are Peter" (Matt. 16:18). 

The significance of the event must have been clear to the other apostles. As devout Jews they knew at once that the location was meant to emphasize the importance of what was being done. None complained of Simon being singled out for this honor; and in the rest of the New Testament he is called by his new name, while James and John remain just James and John, not Boanerges. 

 

Promises to Peter

When he first saw Simon, "Jesus looked at him, and said, ‘So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called Cephas (which means Peter)’" (John 1:42). The word Cephas is merely the transliteration of the Aramaic Kepha into Greek. Later, after Peter and the other disciples had been with Christ for some time, they went to Caesarea Philippi, where Peter made his profession of faith: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" (Matt. 16:16). Jesus told him that this truth was specially revealed to him, and then he solemnly reiterated: "And I tell you, you are Peter" (Matt. 16:18). To this was added the promise that the Church would be founded, in some way, on Peter (Matt. 16:18). 

Then two important things were told the apostle. "Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" (Matt. 16:19). Here Peter was singled out for the authority that provides for the forgiveness of sins and the making of disciplinary rules. Later the apostles as a whole would be given similar power [Matt.18:18], but here Peter received it in a special sense. 

Peter alone was promised something else also: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 16:19). In ancient times, keys were the hallmark of authority. A walled city might have one great gate; and that gate had one great lock, worked by one great key. To be given the key to the city—an honor that exists even today, though its import is lost—meant to be given free access to and authority over the city. The city to which Peter was given the keys was the heavenly city itself. This symbolism for authority is used elsewhere in the Bible (Is. 22:22, Rev. 1:18). 

Finally, after the resurrection, Jesus appeared to his disciples and asked Peter three times, "Do you love me?" (John 21:15-17). In repentance for his threefold denial, Peter gave a threefold affirmation of love. Then Christ, the Good Shepherd (John 10:11, 14), gave Peter the authority he earlier had promised: "Feed my sheep" (John 21:17). This specifically included the other apostles, since Jesus asked Peter, "Do you love me more than these?" (John 21:15), the word "these" referring to the other apostles who were present (John 21:2). Thus was completed the prediction made just before Jesus and his followers went for the last time to the Mount of Olives. 

Immediately before his denials were predicted, Peter was told, "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again [after the denials], strengthen your brethren" (Luke 22:31-32). It was Peter who Christ prayed would have faith that would not fail and that would be a guide for the others; and his prayer, being perfectly efficacious, was sure to be fulfilled. 

 

Who is the rock?

Now take a closer look at the key verse: "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church" (Matt. 16:18). Disputes about this passage have always been related to the meaning of the term "rock." To whom, or to what, does it refer? Since Simon’s new name of Peter itself means rock, the sentence could be rewritten as: "You are Rock and upon this rock I will build my Church." The play on words seems obvious, but commentators wishing to avoid what follows from this—namely the establishment of the papacy—have suggested that the word rock could not refer to Peter but must refer to his profession of faith or to Christ. 

From the grammatical point of view, the phrase "this rock" must relate back to the closest noun. Peter’s profession of faith ("You are the Christ, the Son of the living God") is two verses earlier, while his name, a proper noun, is in the immediately preceding clause. 

As an analogy, consider this artificial sentence: "I have a car and a truck, and it is blue." Which is blue? The truck, because that is the noun closest to the pronoun "it." This is all the more clear if the reference to the car is two sentences earlier, as the reference to Peter’s profession is two sentences earlier than the term rock. 

 

Another alternative

The previous argument also settles the question of whether the word refers to Christ himself, since he is mentioned within the profession of faith. The fact that he is elsewhere, by a different metaphor, called the cornerstone (Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:4-8) does not disprove that here Peter is the foundation. Christ is naturally the principal and, since he will be returning to heaven, the invisible foundation of the Church that he will establish; but Peter is named by him as the secondary and, because he and his successors will remain on earth, the visible foundation. Peter can be a foundation only because Christ is the cornerstone. 

In fact, the New Testament contains five different metaphors for the foundation of the Church (Matt. 16:18, 1 Cor. 3:11, Eph. 2:20, 1 Pet. 2:5-6, Rev. 21:14). One cannot take a single metaphor from a single passage and use it to twist the plain meaning of other passages. Rather, one must respect and harmonize the different passages, for the Church can be described as having different foundations since the word foundation can be used in different senses. 

 

Look at the Aramaic

Opponents of the Catholic interpretation of Matthew 16:18 sometimes argue that in the Greek text the name of the apostle is Petros, while "rock" is rendered as petra. They claim that the former refers to a small stone, while the latter refers to a massive rock; so, if Peter was meant to be the massive rock, why isn’t his name Petra? 

Note that Christ did not speak to the disciples in Greek. He spoke Aramaic, the common language of Palestine at that time. In that language the word for rock is kepha, which is what Jesus called him in everyday speech (note that in John 1:42 he was told, "You will be called Cephas"). What Jesus said in Matthew 16:18 was: "You are Kepha, and upon this kepha I will build my Church." 

When Matthew’s Gospel was translated from the original Aramaic to Greek, there arose a problem which did not confront the evangelist when he first composed his account of Christ’s life. In Aramaic the word kepha has the same ending whether it refers to a rock or is used as a man’s name. In Greek, though, the word for rock, petra, is feminine in gender. The translator could use it for the second appearance of kepha in the sentence, but not for the first because it would be inappropriate to give a man a feminine name. So he put a masculine ending on it, and hence Peter became Petros. 

Furthermore, the premise of the argument against Peter being the rock is simply false. In first century Greek the words petros and petra were synonyms. They had previously possessed the meanings of "small stone" and "large rock" in some early Greek poetry, but by the first century this distinction was gone, as Protestant Bible scholars admit (see D. A. Carson’s remarks on this passage in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary, [Grand Rapids: Zondervan Books]). 

Some of the effect of Christ’s play on words was lost when his statement was translated from the Aramaic into Greek, but that was the best that could be done in Greek. In English, like Aramaic, there is no problem with endings; so an English rendition could read: "You are Rock, and upon this rock I will build my church." 

Consider another point: If the rock really did refer to Christ (as some claim, based on 1 Cor. 10:4, "and the Rock was Christ" though the rock there was a literal, physical rock), why did Matthew leave the passage as it was? In the original Aramaic, and in the English which is a closer parallel to it than is the Greek, the passage is clear enough. Matthew must have realized that his readers would conclude the obvious from "Rock . . . rock." 

If he meant Christ to be understood as the rock, why didn’t he say so? Why did he take a chance and leave it up to Paul to write a clarifying text? This presumes, of course, that 1 Corinthians was written after Matthew’s Gospel; if it came first, it could not have been written to clarify it. 

The reason, of course, is that Matthew knew full well that what the sentence seemed to say was just what it really was saying. It was Simon, weak as he was, who was chosen to become the rock and thus the first link in the chain of the papacy. 


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History
KEYWORDS: catholic; kephas; keystothekingdom; petros; pope; stpeter; thepapacy; thepope; therock; vicarofchrist
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To: ebb tide

Give us examples.......

Don’t just make a baseless claim.


41 posted on 05/01/2015 5:37:07 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: ebb tide

Where is that proof?


42 posted on 05/01/2015 5:45:54 PM PDT by MamaB
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To: NYer

Oh. This should prove interesting. Where’s that popcorn I left it somewhere...


43 posted on 05/01/2015 5:55:00 PM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: RaceBannon

Excellent work. I will add just a wee bit more.

It gets worse for the religious. Jesus is not even talking about the ekklesia of the present administration. How could he? The Mystery of the Body of Christ was hidden in God. It was not revealed until Paul received the Revelation from God. How can we force the BOC, the Church of this present dispensation, into a time and revelation that is primarily about Israel?

Matthew 16:19-20 (ASV)
19 I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he the disciples that they should tell no man that he was the Christ.

What do keys do? They unlock or open. What were they to? The Kingdom of Heaven. What is the KOH? It is an Earthly Kingdom from Heaven, Jewish and exclusive in character, national in its aspect, subject of many OT prophecies, with Jesus as the King. It is the primary theme of Matthew’s Gospel from start to finish. So, how do we force a Christian denomination into that?

Note carefully in Acts that Peter did not go to the nations, but rather, almost exclusively to the Jews - examine Acts for yourself and note who is addressed and where by Peter. He along with the apostles continued following Jewish Law and traditions which caused conflict as Paul started his ministry to the Gentiles. It took a supernatural vision in Acts 10 for Peter to reluctantly share with a Gentile, who just as easily could have been a Jewish proselyte. Even Paul, who was specifically called to go to the Gentiles, still visited synagogues and debated with Jews until God’s final declaration to Israel in Acts 28 to the Jewish leaders in Rome. It was at this point, Paul was given the revelation of the Body of Christ, which was a Mystery hidden in God. This is the dispensation we find ourselves in presently. Like in the wilderness, Israel stumbled because of unbelief for 40 years. The nation was conquered, the people dispersed among the nations, and the KOH postponed.

Binding and loosing, or authority, was given to all Jesus’ followers. (see Matthew 18:18-20 and many others). This is a wonderful Revelation for Believers that will have to wait for another time. Let’s continue through Matthew 16.

Peter received this wonderful Revelation from God. When you continually hear God’s Word, the Holy Spirit reveals the Truth. That is exactly what happened in this case with Peter’s confession. Observe what Jesus tells them in verse 20 - tell no man that he was Christ. Why didn’t Jesus restrict them from mentioning that Peter was the rock that the Roman church will be built on, and the first pope in a long line of religious monarchs? (BTW see Matthew 23 for Jesus’ indictment of organized religion and religious potentates)

It was the REVELATION from God that Jesus was Christ, the Messiah or Anointed One of prophecy that was his concern. Why do you suppose Jesus told them NOT to share this wonderful revelation? Wouldn’t this Truth be worth sharing with the world?

Matthew 16:21-23 (ASV)
21 From that time began Jesus to show unto his disciples, that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and the third day be raised up.
22 And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall never be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art a stumbling-block unto me: for thou mindest not the things of God, but the things of men.

Verse 21 provides a clue. Jesus began telling them what was about to happen - the coming rejection, suffering, cross, and the resurrection. Israel was going to reject their King and the KOH, and crucify him. Look what Peter did, the man who moments ago had this wonderful revelation was now under the influence of the enemy. Jesus rebuked the spirit that was influencing Peter, because he had his mind not on God’s Will, but instead the things of men. That in a nutshell, is why you don’t build churches on men. You build them on something that will never fail, the Eternal Word of God. (Deuteronomy 32:1-4, Psalm 119, Matthew 7:24-25, Luke 6:47-49, John 1:1-13, Acts 4:8-11, 1 Peter 1:18-25, 2:6-8)

Matthew 16:23 makes a good case for not putting men on a religious pedestal. However, you don’t even need to go there. A simple understanding of the plan of God revealed in His Word would end all such confusion regarding this passage. You can find bad “popes” in every denomination throughout time. That is why there is only one Head, Jesus, in the Body of Christ.

Matthew 16:24 (ASV)
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man would come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Follow a religion? Peter? Or Jesus?

Matthew 16:27 (ASV)
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then shall he render unto every man according to his deeds.

This is clearly referring to the 2nd Advent of Jesus at the end of the Tribulation. This is most applicable to Israel, which will be the focus of the last 7 years, and the Gentiles who rejected God’s Grace. For further evidence, note the last few words - render unto every man according to his deeds. That has nothing to do with the Body of Christ in this dispensation where there NOW is no condemnation. Also, try finding the title Son of man for Jesus in the Chruch Epistles. He is the Head of the Body, we are joint heirs with him, made alive in Christ and seated in Heavenly Places.

1 Corinthians 3:11 (ASV)
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.


44 posted on 05/01/2015 5:56:34 PM PDT by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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To: ebb tide; metmom; MamaB
Where is that proof?

Why, the proof is in the Roman Catholic "traditions". You know, the indoctrination course that they call their catechism!

Having been raised in the Episcopal cabal (1st cousins of Catholics), we were taught so much of the same. Like RCCers, they are taught that the Scriptures have a lot of nice stories, but much of it is just fairy tales...

As for ebb tide to answer, I hear his answer loud and clear!


45 posted on 05/01/2015 6:01:46 PM PDT by WVKayaker (Impeachment is the Constitution's answer for a derelict, incompetent president! -Sarah Palin 7/26/14)
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To: metmom

It’s not baseless and I already gave you an example: Martin Luther, probably the supreme Catholic apostate. So far.


46 posted on 05/01/2015 6:05:02 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

He saw that selling indulgences was wrong and did something about it. Good for him. He was a great man. More should be like him


47 posted on 05/01/2015 6:13:22 PM PDT by MamaB
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To: WVKayaker; ebb tide

**As for ebb tide to answer, I hear his answer loud and clear! **

Mind reading much? New hobby?


48 posted on 05/01/2015 6:13:57 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: WVKayaker; MamaB; RnMomof7; metmom

See post 46. Martin Luther, the apostate, removed seven books from the Bible.

As far as crickets chirping, see post 33. Not a peep from anyone


49 posted on 05/01/2015 6:16:41 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide
Martin Luther, probably the supreme Catholic apostate.

Slippery guy he was. They sure would've liked to have burned him at the stake. God was with him.

50 posted on 05/01/2015 6:19:36 PM PDT by BipolarBob (My God can kick your Allahs arse.)
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To: MamaB

>> He was a great man. More should be like him<<

Chapter 9 of the Apocalypse opens with Saint John’s terrifying vision:

“And the fifth Angel sounded the trumpet; and I saw a star fall from Heaven upon the earth, and to him was given the key to the bottomless pit.

“And he opened the bottomless pit: and the smoke of the pit ascended as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun was darkened, and the air with the smoke of the pit:

“And from the smoke of the pit, there came out locusts upon the earth, and power was given to them, as the scorpions of the earth have power.” (Apoc: 9:1-3)

Devout Catholic Scriptural commentators for the past 500 years have seen in this vision a prediction of Luther and his Protestant Revolt.

Father Herman Bernard Kramer, in The Book of Destiny, explains, “Luther did truly open the pit and let loose against the Church all the fury of hell. Therefore modern interpreters almost universally see in this fallen star, Luther.”[1] Father Kramer references the eminent Scriptural commentator, Cornelius a Lapide as making this point.[2]

“The whole description of the locusts”, Father Kramer explains, “fits down to the last detail the kings and princes who established by force the heresy of the 16th Century.” He continues:

“When Luther propounded his heretical and immoral doctrine, the sky became as it were obscured by smoke. It spread very rapidly over some regions of the earth, and it brought forth princes and kings who were eager to despoil the Church of her possessions. They compelled the people of their domains and in the territories robbed from the Church to accept the doctrines of Luther. The proponents of Protestantism made false translations of the Bible and misled the people into their errors by apparently proving from the ‘Bible’ (their own translations) the correctness of their doctrines. It was all deceit, lying and hypocrisy. Bad and weak, lax and lukewarm, indifferent and non-practicing Catholics and those who had neglected to get thorough instruction were thus misled; and these, seeing the Catholic Church now through this smoke of error from the abyss and beholding a distorted caricature of the true Church, began both to fear and hate her.”[3]

As for Luther, he did “everything to instill hatred of the [Catholic] Church into the hearts of his followers.”[4] Father Kramer explains:

“The princes of Germany eagerly took up Lutheranism to become the spiritual heads of the churches in their domains and to plunder the Church. Their assumed jurisdiction in spiritual matters was usurpation ... In Den-mark, Norway and Sweden the Kings imposed Lutheranism upon the people by the power of the sword and by lying, deceit and hypocrisy. They left the altars in the churches and had apostate priests use vestments and external trappings of the Catholic Church to mislead the people. They crushed out the Catholic faith by terrorism, by making it a felony and treason to remain a Catholic. Each monarch made himself the spiritual head of the church in his kingdom. They had so-called historians falsify history to arouse hatred against the Church in the hearts of the people. They pretended to prove the truth of Lutheranism by false translations of the Bible made by Luther and by others and by still falser interpretations of it. Those princes and kings were the locusts appearing in the vision of St. John. They had the teeth of lions to terrify lukewarm Catholics into submission.”[5]

The Haydock Commentary of the Douay Rheims contains a similar explanation of Apocalypse 9:2:

“Luther and his followers propagated and de-fended their new doctrines with such heat and violence as to occasion everywhere seditions and insurrections which they seemed to glory in. Luther openly boasted of it. ‘You complain,’ said he, ‘that by our gospel the world is become more tumultuous; I answer, God be thanked for it; these things I would have so to be, and woe to me if such things were not’.”[6]

The Commentary further explains that indeed the sun was darkened since the light of faith was darkened by the widespread heresy of Protestantism. The revered Redemptorist Father Michael Müller elucidates how these Protestant “re-forms” snuffed out the light of true Faith:

“... they dissected the Catholic faith till they reduced it to a mere skeleton; they lopped off the reality of the body and blood of Christ in the Holy Eucharist, the divine Christian sacrifice offered in the Mass, confession of sins, most of the sacraments, penitential exercises, several of the canonical books of Scripture, the invocations of saints, celibacy, most of the General Councils of the Church, and all present Church authority; they perverted the nature of jurisdiction, asserting that faith alone justifies man; they made God the author of sin, and maintained the observance of the commandments to be impossible.”[7]

Msgr. Joseph Clifford Fenton, the eminent American theologian, rightly observed that Martin Luther’s alleged Reformation of the Church “consisted in an effort to have people abandon the Catholic Faith, and relinquish their membership in the one true Church militant of the New Testament, so as to follow his teaching and enter into his organization.”[8]

This is what the Lutheran revolt was, the tearing away of millions of souls from the one true Church of Christ, and probable consignment of millions to eternal hellfire.

http://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/5ae7de14f0fb304f7bb78d6243389368-91.html


51 posted on 05/01/2015 6:22:44 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

Do you deny Mary was the mother of Jesus Christ? Yes. She was the mother of Jesus the man.

Do you deny Jesus Christ is God? No.

Yes or no answers will suffice. I’ll give more to educate you. Jesus was fully man and fully God. Mary was the mother of the fully man part. To say she is the Mother of God is blasphemous because God has no mother and no beginning nor end. More details will be given in Heaven (hope you make it).


52 posted on 05/01/2015 6:27:02 PM PDT by BipolarBob (My God can kick your Allahs arse.)
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To: WVKayaker; MamaB; metmom; RnMomof7; BipolarBob
THE ERRORS OF MARTIN LUTHER Exsurge Domine Bull of Pope Leo X issued June 15, 1520
53 posted on 05/01/2015 6:33:05 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide; metmom; daniel1212; Elsie; CynicalBear
“Transcribed Scripture”! ROTFLMAO. The Prots have been editing, at will.....

Proof or you retract the claim and admit you're wrong.

Specifically, which part of Scripture has been edited at will as you claim. I'm talking at the verse level.

54 posted on 05/01/2015 6:36:56 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: ebb tide

Just what would one expect of a Pope? He had to protect that “cult” at all costs.


55 posted on 05/01/2015 6:37:10 PM PDT by MamaB
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To: ealgeone

Thank you. I want to see that proof, too.


56 posted on 05/01/2015 6:38:43 PM PDT by MamaB
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To: BipolarBob
Mary was the mother of the fully man part.

You can't split Christ into two persons. That's nonsense.

57 posted on 05/01/2015 6:41:30 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ealgeone; MamaB

Can you not follow the thread?


58 posted on 05/01/2015 6:42:47 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide
You can't split Christ into two persons.

If you'd read the Bible then you'd know "With God all things are possible". Sorry to spoil your trick question thingy.

59 posted on 05/01/2015 6:44:47 PM PDT by BipolarBob (My God can kick your Allahs arse.)
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To: MamaB

I liken Luther to Satan, they both rebelled against God out of personal pride.

And both of them certainly encouraged men to sin, and sin freely. Satan is still at it, by the way.


60 posted on 05/01/2015 6:50:30 PM PDT by ebb tide
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