Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints

Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

[NYer]

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)

1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,

And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):

And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”

So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)

2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:

In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).

Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:

For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.

Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:

Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.

But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):

I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)

3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:

So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 

Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):

But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!

[Grateful2God]

Then take it elsewhere."

Thank you, good Christian, but I have just as much right to be here as you do. What I was wondering was why people who don't believe in the Communion of Saints felt it necessary to jump on before half a dozen posts. It simply proved what was said in the article: that most non-Catholic Christians don't believe. Why the disruption? You have plenty of anti Catholic fodder to read. But, as always, "Do what thou wilt."

[BlueDragon]

Thank you, good Christian, but I have just as much right to be here as you do.

None have "rights" to post comment here. It's more like a privilege.

But you did say that the thread was by and for "Catholics".

And then appeared to be indiscriminately complaining about disagreements expressed by others.

What I was wondering was why people who don't believe in the Communion of Saints felt it necessary to jump on before half a dozen posts.

Communion of saints, and actually praying TO departed saints are not necessarily the same thing. Those two things were not identical/overlapping in the first few centuries of the Church.

It simply proved what was said in the article: that most non-Catholic Christians don't believe.

I had included in my note to you mention (and Scriptural basis) of how communion of the saints could be understood.

Why the disruption?

What disruption?

If my own objections to things you have written here are "disruptive", then what of your own overall approach which is usually packed with negative commentary (and side-bars) filled with complaint about "Protestants"? Additionally, yourself having told others here on an open thread that this one was by and for "Catholics" does look like effort to stifle dissent.

Would that not be sort-of stealthily disruptive of their own rights privileges?

But, as always, "Do what thou wilt."

You've as much told me that you yourself will being doing that very thing.

Yet somehow, when it comes to those in disagreement with yourself...it's (perhaps) Aleister Crowley-like?

High-and-mighty, Romish jedi mind tricks don't work on me, FRiend. I've seen it all before.

[Grateful2God]

Not worth further response.

[Elsie]

Do you mean like the founder of Protestantism being an unrepentant and vicious anti-Semite
whose Seven Step Program Against the Jews led directly to the Holocaust ?

It's you damned PROTestants that cause us to be this way!

[Elsie]

I already anticipated the outdated material and put in the Vatican II position.

So the church changed AGAIN???

[Elsie]

...sonce he is foundational to the Reformation.

SOMEbody had to do it!

Your EVIL popes of those years sure were not going to!

[Elsie]

It simply proved what was said in the article: that most non-Catholic Christians don't believe.

It PROVES nothing; other than you can take anything and then CLAIM it 'proves' something.

[BlueDragon]

Not worth further response.

Then why bother to say that? I think I know why...

All the superficial nicey-nicey and 'God be with you' sort of talk is just a shield to hold up while attempting to stifle discussion and give one grounds for ignoring anything which is said if such discussion turns into disagreement with 'Rome'.

Yet the fundamental flaw with the entire article, which I touched upon previously;

Communion of saints, and actually praying to departed saints are not necessarily the same thing.

John 14 shows something else other than praying to anyone save for Our Father (who is in heaven). Yes, I know, the "Our Father" is not found expressed word-for-word in John 14. Yet it was a direct teaching of Christ which carries very much across the board, continuing the pattern of how we all must posture ourselves before the One God Almighty-All sufficient, El Shaddai. Once He is met with in the manner spoken of in John14 then it becomes clearer just who He is. (Deuteronomy 4:24 (Hebrews 12:29)

If yourself or any here would care to consider those things, taken up all together at once to consider all at once ---- then hopefully the differing conception of 'communion of the saints' which I've been driving at could at least be understood.

If one does not or cannot understand what I'm talking about, and then not even TRY to understand any other than their own viewpoints, then productive conversation about this issue will be difficult if not impossible.

In the meantime, take the dictatorial "better than though" sort of snootiness for a hike. Or at least set it aside upon some shelf long enough to understand what it is that is being said, instead of having anyone needing discuss things merely (and only) as your own co-religionists frame whatever issue is under discussion here.

You know, like speak towards an actual underlying issue instead of just a --- this side against some other side commentary while replies are attempted to be held hostage to "feelings" and Catholics own views of themselves and their Church ecclesiastical community?

Yet if it is insisted that it be either agreement with RCC views, or else if not all bow-and-scraping nicey-nicey when expressing objections to some theological aspect or another under discussion, what is that but an attempt to hold the manner of expression of dissenters hostage to some lopsided view of your own, and perhaps others regarding theological discussion?

What of the RCC having rhetorically made itself out to be God on earth? I noticed that was skipped over also.

That one place in the document entitled Lumum Gentium is not the only place where Romanists make those kind of noises, yet -- the Roman Catholic Church is most certainly not God.

Try to wrap your mind around that for just one moment...

One moment may be all it takes to begin to see the light.

[BlueDragon]

THANK YOU.

[Grateful2God]

Greetings, All:

There are certain tenets of Catholicism which have caused heated arguments in forum. Many involve what is known to us as part of the Communion of Saints. Before the discussion had a chance to begin, a post appeared calling out the perceived Protestant-bashing in the article- which simply compared the difference in beliefs, without derision.

Why the subsequent personal remarks toward me, beginning with the suggestion I leave forum, have been tolerated, well, I have no answer. I simply chose to step away from a poster whose remarks were, I felt, inappropriate, and personal attacks on my credibility.

I do however, have the Catholic Church's teaching on what we call The Communion of Saints. Our usual points of dispute are highlighted; one can see why this has become another thread which has reached large proportions.

II. THE COMMUNION OF THE CHURCH OF HEAVEN AND EARTH

954 The three states of the Church.
"When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is"':492

All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways share in the same charity towards God and our neighbors, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God. All, indeed, who are of Christ and who have his Spirit form one Church and in Christ cleave together.

955 "So it is that the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who sleep in the peace of Christ is in no way interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the constant faith of the Church, this union is reinforced by an exchange of spiritual goods."494

956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."495 Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.496 I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.497

957 Communion with the saints.
"It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"498:
We worship Christ as God's Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord's disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!499

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and

'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins'

she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

959 In the one family of God. "For if we continue to love one another and to join in praising the Most Holy Trinity - all of us who are sons of God and form one family in Christ - we will be faithful to the deepest vocation of the Church."501

IN BRIEF
960 The Church is a "communion of saints": this expression refers first to the "holy things" (sancta), above all

the Eucharist,

by which "the unity of believers, who form one body in Christ, is both represented and brought about" (LG 3).

961 The term "communion of saints" refers also to the communion of"holy persons" (sancti) in Christ who "died for all," so that what each one does or suffers in and for Christ bears fruit for all.

962

"We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG § 30).

[Grateful2God]

"I think I know why..."

Mind reading?

---

G2G: Not worth further response.

BD: Then why bother to say that?

Because I have no desire to receive emails from this handle: neither did I previously, and my request in advance to stop was not respected.

[Elsie]

Call me Captain Obvious

[Elsie]

Because I have no desire to receive emails from this handle: neither did I previously, and my request in advance to stop was not respected.

It takes a LOT less typing to just skip over something that displeases you; than typing, "my request in advance to stop was not respected."

This merely shows (to me anyway) a certain petulance.

[BlueDragon]

Aye aye.

[BlueDragon]

Comments on the forum in the here and now are not "emails".

[BlueDragon]

Captain Obvious, meet Petulance.

Petulance, Obvious.

...ah, what's that?...you've already met?

[BlueDragon]

I shouldn't have posted that. But I do tire of the layers of game-playing.

It seems to me that some fool themselves into thinking they have valid game.

[Grateful2God]

G:Like I said earlier, Luther’s Roman Catholics roots were showing.
And he certainly didn’t persecute Jews, like the Papists of his day did.

---

Luther posted his complaints in public; changed the Bible to accommodate his views on Purgatory; threw out dogmas and Sacraments; married a nun; began his own church bearing his name: I'd say the man was definitely an independent thinker.
If your statement about his Catholic roots holds true, then would it not follow that our fellow FReepers who are former Catholics would still maintain their Catholic roots as well? I don't think that argument really works. We are all a product of our past, but it is unreasonable to credit the man for his virtues and blame the Church for his flaws.

---

Whatever Luther was, in all honesty, I never realized how he felt about the Jewish people.

Luther on Jews

At the beginning of his career, Martin Luther was apparently sympathetic to Jewish resistance to the Catholic Church. However, he expected the Jews to convert to his purified Christianity; when they did not, he turned violently against them.

Luther used violent and vulgar language throughout his career. While we do not expect religious figures to use this sort of language in the modern world, but it was not uncommon in the early 16th century.

The following are excerpts from Luther's work entitled "The Jews & their Lies":

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians

Take away their freedom of worship?

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies.

Destroy their homes? There are 7 items in this series, to be found on the link above.

Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did in the wilderness, slaying three thousand lest the whole people perish. They surely do not know what they are doing; moreover, as people possessed, they do not wish to know it, hear it, or learn it. There it would be wrong to be merciful and confirm them in their conduct. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs, so that we do not become partakers of their abominable blasphemy and all their other vices and thus merit God's wrath and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Now let everyone see to his. I am exonerated.

---

I'll read the bulls, and dust off my encyclicals, as I know the latter will better reflect the Church's current position.
I don't agree with Luther and what he did in his life. I can't see into his conscience; but I felt that, however misguided, he was trying to do the right thing. Whatever belief system a person subscribes to, however, his promulgation of this and other horrible things he encouraged others to do is intrinsically wrong- especially when done in the name of Christianity. I gave Luther more credit than that.

I'm sorry, but I am pro-Israel, pro-Semitic and I believe that the Jews are the Chosen People of God, from whom came Jesus, through His descent from the line of Judah, soon of Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham. They did not kill Christ: mankind in his sins did. They have not yet found their Messiah, and so, together, we wait: the Jews for His first coming, and we for His second. God bless them and keep them free from their enemies.

[Grateful2God]

I know the difference. I’m just making certain history, at least in that respect, is not repeated.

[Grateful2God]

This merely shows (to me anyway) a certain petulance.

"Fatta i cosi tui" - Italian for, "mind your own business."