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Not worth further response.

Then why bother to say that? I think I know why...

All the superficial nicey-nicey and 'God be with you' sort of talk is just a shield to hold up while attempting to stifle discussion and give one grounds for ignoring anything which is said if such discussion turns into disagreement with 'Rome'.

Yet the fundamental flaw with the entire article, which I touched upon previously;

Communion of saints, and actually praying to departed saints are not necessarily the same thing

John 14 shows something else other than praying to anyone save for Our Father (who is in heaven). Yes, I know, the "Our Father" is not found expressed word-for-word in John 14. Yet it was a direct teaching of Christ which carries very much across the board, continuing the pattern of how we all must posture ourselves before the One God Almighty-All sufficient, El Shaddai. Once He is met with in the manner spoken of in John14 then it becomes clearer just who He is. (Deuteronomy 4:24 (Hebrews 12:29)

If yourself or any here would care to consider those things, taken up all together at once to consider all at once ---- then hopefully the differing conception of 'communion of the saints' which I've been driving at could at least be understood.

If one does not or cannot understand what I'm talking about, and then not even TRY to understand any other than their own viewpoints, then productive conversation about this issue will be difficult if not impossible.

In the meantime, take the dictatorial "better than though" sort of snootiness for a hike. Or at least set it aside upon some shelf long enough to understand what it is that is being said, instead of having anyone needing discuss things merely (and only) as your own co-religionists frame whatever issue is under discussion here.

You know, like speak towards an actual underlying issue instead of just a --- this side against some other side commentary while replies are attempted to be held hostage to "feelings" and Catholics own views of themselves and their ~~Church~~ ecclesiastical community?

Yet if it is insisted that it be either agreement with RCC views, or else if not all bow-and-scraping nicey-nicey when expressing objections to some theological aspect or another under discussion, what is that but an attempt to hold the manner of expression of dissenters hostage to some lopsided view of your own, and perhaps others regarding theological discussion?

What of the RCC having rhetorically made itself out to be God on earth? I noticed that was skipped over also.

That one place in the document entitled Lumum Gentium is not the only place where Romanists make those kind of noises, yet -- the Roman Catholic Church is most certainly not God.

Try to wrap your mind around that for just one moment...

One moment may be all it takes to begin to see the light.

Greetings, All:

There are certain tenets of Catholicism which have caused heated arguments in forum. Many involve what is known to us as part of the Communion of Saints. Before the discussion had a chance to begin, a post appeared calling out the perceived Protestant-bashing in the article- which simply compared the difference in beliefs, without derision.

Why the subsequent personal remarks toward me, beginning with the suggestion I leave forum, have been tolerated, well, I have no answer. I simply chose to step away from a poster whose remarks were, I felt, inappropriate, and personal attacks on my credibility.

I do however, have the Catholic Church's teaching on what we call The Communion of Saints. Our usual points of dispute are highlighted; one can see why this has become another thread which has reached large proportions.

II. THE COMMUNION OF THE CHURCH OF HEAVEN AND EARTH

954 The three states of the Church.
"When the Lord comes in glory, and all his angels with him, death will be no more and all things will be subject to him. But at the present time some of his disciples are pilgrims on earth. Others have died and are being purified, while still others are in glory, contemplating 'in full light, God himself triune and one, exactly as he is"':492

All of us, however, in varying degrees and in different ways share in the same charity towards God and our neighbors, and we all sing the one hymn of glory to our God. All, indeed, who are of Christ and who have his Spirit form one Church and in Christ cleave together.

955 "So it is that the union of the wayfarers with the brethren who sleep in the peace of Christ is in no way interrupted, but on the contrary, according to the constant faith of the Church, this union is reinforced by an exchange of spiritual goods."494

956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness. . . . They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus . . . . So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."495 Do not weep, for I shall be more useful to you after my death and I shall help you then more effectively than during my life.496 I want to spend my heaven in doing good on earth.497

957 Communion with the saints.
"It is not merely by the title of example that we cherish the memory of those in heaven; we seek, rather, that by this devotion to the exercise of fraternal charity the union of the whole Church in the Spirit may be strengthened. Exactly as Christian communion among our fellow pilgrims brings us closer to Christ, so our communion with the saints joins us to Christ, from whom as from its fountain and head issues all grace, and the life of the People of God itself"498:
We worship Christ as God's Son; we love the martyrs as the Lord's disciples and imitators, and rightly so because of their matchless devotion towards their king and master. May we also be their companions and fellow disciples!499

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and

'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins'

she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

959 In the one family of God. "For if we continue to love one another and to join in praising the Most Holy Trinity - all of us who are sons of God and form one family in Christ - we will be faithful to the deepest vocation of the Church."501

IN BRIEF
960 The Church is a "communion of saints": this expression refers first to the "holy things" (sancta), above all

the Eucharist,

by which "the unity of believers, who form one body in Christ, is both represented and brought about" (LG 3).

961 The term "communion of saints" refers also to the communion of"holy persons" (sancti) in Christ who "died for all," so that what each one does or suffers in and for Christ bears fruit for all.

962

"We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG § 30).