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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: DannyTN
Unless sleeping is equivalent with Paradise, the thief didn’t sleep either.

HMMMmmm...

Psalm 116:15
Precious in the eyes of Jehovah is the death for His saints.

321 posted on 04/21/2015 11:04:13 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“Do you think miracles are restricted to bishops and popes?”

No, but if they claim to be successors to the apostles, having that office passed down to them through an unbroken chain of succession, then, at the very least, they should be able to demonstrate the miraculous powers possessed by apostles.

If they can’t pass that low hurdle, then I have no reason to even waste my time examining other so-called miracles claimed by the Catholic church, because they have already impeached their own testimony.


322 posted on 04/21/2015 11:08:36 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: metmom

Thank you.


323 posted on 04/21/2015 11:10:19 AM PDT by Eucharista
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To: Elsie

By what means have you achieved a level of knowledge and understanding of Catholic teaching sufficient to make your observations anything more that amateurish opinions?


324 posted on 04/21/2015 11:10:19 AM PDT by Eucharista
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To: SumProVita
Do you not pray the Our Father prayer that Jesus gave us?

Reading is FUNdamental!


Jesus gave us NO prayer.

The disciples asked to be taught HOW to pray; not WHAT to pray.

325 posted on 04/21/2015 11:12:05 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I think this is the best for its elegance in simplicity. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3000325/posts?page=60#60

How many times must this be posted? How many times? 70X70? 700? Is this the lot of the self-chosen FRoman Catholic apologist? To constantly hear the mind-numbed regurgitation of “If you bow down to something, or someone, then that’s worship. Worship due to God alone. The Greek says so. Period.” (Such human automatons even ignore where bowing to a created being is sanctioned by God, Jesus Himself! Rev 3:9. But I digress in my rant)

It’s beyond my store of patience, which isn’t that great anyway. How many times? More than I can either count or tolerate.


326 posted on 04/21/2015 11:13:25 AM PDT by FourtySeven (47)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
...therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin ...

Poor ol' Joe.

Never DID get to have a REAL marriage.

327 posted on 04/21/2015 11:15:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Iscool; Mrs. Don-o

We see what you do so it doesn’t matter what you say because while you say you don’t worship these creatures we see you worshiping and giving glory to them...


Fortunately for Mrs. Don-o, what you seeth is not what God seeth. As the Lord said to Samuel: “the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.”

So it’s not what you or any other man thinks they see from outward appearance, it’s what God sees in our hearts.


328 posted on 04/21/2015 11:15:16 AM PDT by rwa265
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To: daniel1212
Thanks for this discussion, daniel1212.

I agree that it would not be reasonable to dismiss every belief and practice which has not been officially defined or declared by the authority of the Magisterium.

However, the views presented about Marian devotion in this forum have resulted in a distorted picture of the Church, much like the elephant as perceived by the six blind men, who thought an elephant was very like a rope, a tree trunk, a palm leaf fan, a branch, a spear, or a wall.

It's like seeing in a Fun House mirror an unrecognizable image of yourself, composed of a huge nose, tiny eyes fluctuating between 2 and 4 in number, one cheek flexing in an out, and the other almost invisible, lips that shake like Krakatoa and a brow that looks like Kansas.

An analogy: I once read with great interest a short book called "The Trail of Blood" by J.M. Carroll, which was put in my hands by my late father-in-law as a true account of Baptist belief. I am sorry to say that Carroll claimed the spiritual descent of Baptists from much earlier groups like the Waldensians, the Cathari, the Paulicians, and the Donatists. Not to go into great detail, let me just say that if I were to analyze this naive little booklet line by line, I could go on for volumes about the absurdity of Baptist beliefs.

But I would be wrong. Why?

Because the booklet, though widespread in distribution and considered reliable by many, simply does not represent core Baptist doctrine, or even the folk-beliefs of Baptists taken as a whole.

The lesson I am trying to convey by use of this "Trail of Blood" analogy is this: when comparing doctrines, the first thing you want to determine is whether the proposition or text you are discussing is actually a doctrine.

Latching onto dubious non-doctrinal statements seems to show polemicism rather than the patient discernment of the truth. Lobbing one dubious specimen after another into the discussion is a disorienting rhetorical ploy, not a way to advance understanding.

If it's hard to distinguish doctrine from courtly poetry, arcane mystery or theological speculation --- and I can see how it's sometimes difficult ---my advice would be to stick with authoritative summaries of doctrine, e.g. the Catechism. Or to ask a knowledgeable Catholic, "What do you mean by this?" with the expectation of a good-faith explanation.

329 posted on 04/21/2015 11:17:23 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Praise God from Whom all blessings flow, / Praise Him all people here below.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
The sections I cited would certainly illuminate the ways God does share His glory.There is glory, and there is GLORY.

You did illustrate one of them.


Romans 1:23
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man...

330 posted on 04/21/2015 11:17:41 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
It depends on whether you mean spiritually dead or physically dead.

Did I miss your comments on WHO the Dead in Christ are?

On the identities of those who will RISE FROM THE TOMB at the last trump?

331 posted on 04/21/2015 11:19:15 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: daniel1212
Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints

And almost daily we are told here by FRoman Catholics that they do not pray to but ask the saints to pray for them to God.

332 posted on 04/21/2015 11:20:23 AM PDT by redleghunter (1 Peter 1:3-5)
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To: Eucharista
Yours is a particularly adversarial tone that I find incompatible with a discussion of God.

I just HATE it when things like this are shown!!


 


 
Matthew 15:16
   "Are you still so dull?" Jesus asked them.

Matthew 23
 
  1.  Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
  2.  "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
  3.  So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
  4.  They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
  5.  "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries  wide and the tassels on their garments long;
  6.  they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues;
  7.  they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
  8.  "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
  9.  And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
 10.  Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
 11.  The greatest among you will be your servant.
 12.  For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
 13.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 
 14.  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation. 
 15.   "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 
 16.  "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
 17.  You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?
 18.  You also say, `If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.'
 19.  You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
 20.  Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
 21.  And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it.
 22.  And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.
 23.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
 24.  You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.
 25.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.
 26.  Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.
 27.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites!  You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean.
 28.  In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.
 29.  "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous.
 30.  And you say, `If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
 31.  So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets.
 32.  Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!
 33.  "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
 34.  Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town.
 35.  And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
 36.  I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.
 37.  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
 38.  Look, your house is left to you desolate.
 39.  For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, `Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "
 


Mark 7:26-27
 26.  The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
 27.  "First let the children eat all they want," he told her, "for it is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
 

And St. Paul chimes in...

Galatians 5:12
   As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!
 


333 posted on 04/21/2015 11:20:30 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Resettozero
Other than that, the popes think we other Christians are okay then?

It mattereth NOT what popes think; only what the CHURCH teaches.

334 posted on 04/21/2015 11:21:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ealgeone
"The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin..."---Manteau-Bonamy, Immaculate Conception, 91; F.X. Durrwell, The Holy Spirit of God (Cincinnati: Servant Books, 2006), 183-185
What?? That is amazing and so un-Biblical as to be blaspheme.

More and more Mary has become the central figure in Catholicism.

Immaculata, what a word!

Thanks for posting that, eagleone

335 posted on 04/21/2015 11:23:01 AM PDT by Syncro (Jesus Christ, the same today, yesterday, and forever!)
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To: Eucharista
By what means have you achieved a level of knowledge and understanding of Catholic teaching sufficient to make your observations anything more that amateurish opinions?

At least the youngster at Job's side knew enough to respect his elders.

336 posted on 04/21/2015 11:23:05 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Halfway!


337 posted on 04/21/2015 11:23:48 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: DannyTN; Elsie
Unless sleeping is equivalent with Paradise, the thief didn’t sleep either.

Have given this two smidgens of consideration during a long lunch break and there are several ways to go in responding.

Jesus died shortly after saying that to the thief, who may have outlived Jesus on Planet Earth. (His legs had to be broken.) Whether Paradise existed in or out of the realm of time or in Eternity is not something you and I know based on Scripture and can only surmise. So...WHEN is "this day" with Jesus and WHERE is Paradise.

Another response would relate to the fact that whatever Jesus indicated would happen, DID happen, regardless the laws of physics as we so poorly understand them. Wine from water jugs, water-walking, storm-ceasing, bread and fish multiplying beyond all reason (and with a surplus besides), and, raising from the dead on the third day as promised. The thief will be saved from the second death and will be with Jesus "this day" in Paradise. Could be still asleep in Christ's promise, as are so many Saints previous to us.
338 posted on 04/21/2015 11:24:34 AM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Eucharista; Elsie
By what means have you achieved a level of knowledge and understanding of Catholic teaching sufficient to make your observations anything more that amateurish opinions?

No no no no no, Eucharista.

Jesus we know, Paul we know, Elsie we know...but...

Show FReepers YOUR street cred FIRST.
339 posted on 04/21/2015 11:33:35 AM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Boogieman
"No, but if they claim to be successors to the apostles,..."

Miracles and signs are for the benefit if the unbelievers, not the believers and are worked through, not by the saints. We cannot look at the instruments God uses as a disclaimer on His omnipotence.

340 posted on 04/21/2015 11:35:23 AM PDT by Eucharista
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