Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints

Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

[NYer]

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)

1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,

And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):

And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.”

So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)

2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:

In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).

Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:

For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.

Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:

Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.

But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):

I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)

3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:

So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 

Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):

But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.

So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!

[DannyTN]

"First of all "Jesus does not "love" us all"

Actually, He does. But He is also a God of Justice and will punish unrepentant sin.

Scripture says that He is "unwilling that any should perish" (2Pe 3:9), and John 3:16 says Jhn 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

So he loves everyone at least enough to have gone to the cross for them. He might love some of us more than others. But he sees the potential in each one of us and loves us as individuals regardless of our sin. He "loved us while we were yet sinners"(Rom 5:8).

Nevertheless, if we remain in unrepentant sin. If we never avail ourselves of the pardon made available to us, then He will judge us according to our works. And our evil works will condemn us to the second death.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"As a Protestant, my biggest issue with the Catholic Church is it seems the the vast majority of their prayers are to Mary, not Jesus or God."

That's an interesting comment, 5thGen, but it does not match the way the Catholic Church actually prays.

If you have the opportunity to attend a Mass in the future --- or you could google the text --- you will notice that Mary is mentioned ONCE the hour-long service which is the official public prayer of the Church, and even then she does not get even a whole sentence to herself. Here's the text:

I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done
and in what I have failed to do,
through my fault,
through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God

This prayer, called the Confiteor, is a classic example of intercessory prayer through the Communion of Saints.

[kinsman redeemer]

Actually a majority of the world's Christians do accept Catholicism and its Sacred Tradition.

Until now, I had no idea that the whole thing is determined by majority rule.

< /sarc>

Matt 22:13,14
Then the king said to the attendants, ' Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. ' For many are called, but few are chosen."

[kinsman redeemer]

The vast majority of protestants I have known, and I was a protestant for 58 years, could care less what the Old Testament says.

With "...I have known..." being the key phrase.

For me, the vast majority of practicing, Bible-educated, disciples of God's Word who I know, have at least a basic understanding of the importance of the entirety of the Bible - including the Old and New Testaments. Disciples of the Word know that Jesus Christ and God's plan for redemption is the principle theme of all the Bible.

[Iscool]

The vast majority of protestants I have known, and I was a protestant for 58 years, could care less what the Old Testament says.

No doubt that contributed to you becoming a Catholic...Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of God...In fact, it is that same ignorance of scripture which keeps Catholics from leaving your religion...

[Mrs. Don-o]

I sincerely believe that you and I both agree that God is telling the truth.

That said, why don't you comment on the many Scriptures I cited at #186. The usual axiom on Scriptural interpretation is, "Let Scripture interpret Scripture." The sections I cited would certainly illuminate the ways God does share His glory.

Does that contradict what you quoted about God NOT sharing His glory?

You'd have to take that up with the Holy Spirit, the Author of all these texts.

My own understand would be that one text is referring to "sharing" glory with rival gods --- which God will never do --- while the verses I quoted mean that He is free to glorify those faithful people on whom His favor rests.

[ealgeone]

Jesus may love us all but I’m pretty sure Jesus is NOT approving of the actions and speech of those of you who carry hatred and bigotry in your hearts.

Would He have approved of Paul's efforts or Peter's in engaging the opponents of Christianity in their day?

[Mrs. Don-o]

“When your religion teaches against priest raping young boys yet your popes do nothing about those that do, THAT is the teaching of the Catholic religion...”

Attend, please, to two points:

First, the factual: “Popes do nothing about those that [rape]” -— is a misdirected calumny. You can’t name a Pope who did “nothing” about these vile sins; and the verifiable facts from insurers specializing in liability (LINK) show that such hell-bent offenses are -— sorrowfully -— prevalent other churches as well.

What does this prove? Sometimes that men in top pastoral positions are naive, not believing credible allegations; sometimes that there are shameful institutional cover-ups; very often that sex offenders themselves effectively hide their crimes like the sociopathic liars they are. And that’s in churches, schools, and youth programs across the board.

Second, the distinction between good doctrine and evil behavior. If the presence of gravely sinful men could discredit a faith group, then Christianity would have been discredited from the git-go -— by the presence of Judas among Jesus’ selected men. The sad reality is that our churches -— mine and yours -— are composed of sinners from top to bottom: we know that, and that’s why we need a Savior.

Trying to center this problem of “the pope” is a misdirection and, quite frankly, an unjust vilification.

“If I tell you that I abhor alcoholics but all my closest friends are drunks, it’s not too hard to figure out the truth of the matter...”

Perhaps you don’t realize that

(1) alcoholics are not to be “abhorred,” they are our brothers, sisters, parents, spouses, who are to be loved and helped. I deplore alcoholism. I detest drunkenness. And I love a fair number of alcoholics. Plus...

(2) A lot of alcoholics who haven’t had a drink for years, go regularly to AA and similar meetings, where their best friends are indeed alcoholics. That is not a case of moral contamination. Jesus was accused of being “a winebibber and a glutton” because he dined and drank with people so afflicted. I would like to think we can be friends with alcoholics and not be scorned for it by my fellow Christians.

“When we see your religion condemning praying to Mary and then a pope gets on his knees in front of millions of Catholics and thanks Mary for saving his life, we KNOW the real teaching of your religion regardless of what it says on paper...”

Again, misdirected. Catholics do NOT condemn praying to Mary (as you know!) -— we pray to (meaning, in Christ we are in living contact with) literally thousands of holy servants of God, saints and fellow-believers on this earth and saints in heaven, including the Holy Angels -— because we worship God along with them, and we mutually help each other by our constant prayers. This is called the Communion of Saints. We all pray for each other without exception, “so that there should be no division in the Body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other.” (1 Cor 12:25).

Second, the reverential gestures which you mentioned, are not the same as adoration. This has been explained in a reasonable way repeatedly on this forum.

http://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3000325/posts?page=60#60

http://freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3000325/posts?page=61#61

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3228444/posts?page=70#70

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3000325/posts?page=39#39

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain this, iscool. I’m always glad to help.

[Mrs. Don-o]

It depends on whether you mean spiritually dead or physically dead.

[Iscool]

That looks like a communication error to me. If someone has ASKED for the intercession of a Saint, that person might say, “I prayed to St. Paul for help.” What is meant by that is that St. Paul has been asked for intercessory help..i.e. praying to God for the person who asked.

And yet if someone ask you to get your neighbor to pray for them, you are not praying to your neighbor, right???

Or you may want your aunt Gertrude who has passed on to pray for you, you don't pray to your aunt Gertrude, do you???

So it's no miscommunication error at all...We recognize that you guys are fully cognizant between the difference between asking someone to pray for you and 'praying to' a Saint or the mother of Jesus...

[WayneS]

My aunt Gertrude is DEAD?!

Why am I always the last one to find these things out?

...

...

;-)

[Iscool]

Whether we call it "praying to" or "praying for" or "praying about," praying does not mean "adoration." All the ways we share our spiritual gifts in the Communion of Saints can be called "praying."

It's not what you say about it that matters...It's what you do...We see what you do so it doesn't matter what you say because while you say you don't worship these creatures we see you worshiping and giving glory to them...

[Mrs. Don-o]

Do you think miracles are restricted to bishops and popes?

There are instances in the lives of the saints of people being raised from the dead: St. Catherine of Siena, for one, both cured the sick and raised the dead by invoking the Name of Jesus.

Plus there are those who, by some preternatural gift or infused knowledge from Go,) have understood or been understood in languages they had not learned, e.g. St. (Padre) Pio of Pietrelcino (a 20th century saint who also bilocated), and St. Jean (John) Vianney.

The best-documented instance of bilocation in all of history occurred with St. Maria of Agreda.

There's lots and lots of miracles in Catholic history, and those in recent centuries are often verified using the tools and techniques of scientific investigation.

Can't say I undersand it, but I sure appreciate it.

[Eucharista]

Yours is a particularly adversarial tone that I find incompatible with a discussion of God.

I remind you that at Jesus’ Transfiguration (Matthew 17:1–9, Mark 9:2-8, Luke 9:28–36 and 2 Peter 1:16–18) both Moses and Elijah appeared to and spoke with the human nature of Jesus. Scripture also refers to many who are alive in Christ. Asking them to intercede on our behalf is not sinful or unprecedented.

[metmom]

Welcome to FR.

[Elsie]

Jesus may love us all but I’m pretty sure Jesus is NOT approving of the actions and speech of those of you who carry hatred and bigotry in your hearts.

I don’t feel like posting all of those names. Like yours.

"One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved, in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the species of bread and wine; the bread (changed) into His body by the divine power of transubstantiation, and the wine into the blood, so that to accomplish the mystery of unity we ourselves receive from His (nature) what He Himself received from ours." — Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215)

Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church; or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema. — Vatican 1, Ses. 4, Cp. 1

[Elsie]

Besides you ignored the beginning of the verse in Corinthians.

At least I posted something!

[Resettozero]

Actually, THAT was her very first post on FR.

And she doesn’t like it here already.

[Elsie]

When Paul is confident of something, you probably shouldn’t dismiss it as wishful thinking.

When a Catholic is confident of something, you probably should dismiss it as being non-biblical.

[Resettozero]

Other than that, the popes think we other Christians are okay then?