Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Why Rome Can Only Appreciate, Rather than Prove the Immaculate Conception
Fallibility ^ | May 1, 2013 | Michael Taylor

Posted on 03/26/2015 11:36:04 AM PDT by RnMomof7

Why Rome Can Only Appreciate, Rather than Prove the Immaculate Conception

Should we believe something because we think it is true, or should we think something is true because we first believe?  For example, if you believe that extra-terrestrials have visited the earth, then you are likely to believe in UFO sightings and  alien abduction stories, and conspiracy theories about government coverups as confirmation of what you already believe.  This doesn’t mean that you believe that every UFO sighting or abduction story is real.  Nor does this mean that you buy into every conspiracy theory out there.  But if you are already inclined to believe in ETs (perhaps you or someone you trust has had a “close encounter” of some kind), then you are likely to view the “evidence” in a way that confirms what you already believe.

On the other hand, you may be skeptical, even if in principle you are open to the idea of extra-terrestrial life.  Perhaps you view the vastness of the universe as probability for the existence of intelligent life on another planet, but doubt that anyone has developed the technology that would enable interstellar travel.  In this case, UFO sightings, abduction stories and conspiracy theories probably won’t persuade you to change your mind, since there may be plausible alternative explanations for all of these alleged phenomena.

The question, then, is on what basis should you believe the claim that extra-terrestrials have visited planet Earth?  The only rational answer is to believe on the basis of credible evidence.  As Carl Sagan said it, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.”

The same can be said of the claims of Christianity.  For example, take the claim “He is risen.”   This is an extraordinary claim, and no reasonable person ought to accept it without extraordinary proof.  That doesn’t mean we have to put our finger into the holes in Jesus’ hands in order to warrant belief.  But it does mean we need more than hearsay.  Providentially, we do have extraordinary evidence to back up this claim.  An empty tomb that was under guard, hundreds of eyewitnesses, an otherwise improbable and inexplicable growth of Christianity, and no alternative explanation that has any plausibility whatsoever.  In short, all the evidence points inescapably to one conclusion: Jesus of Nazareth died and rose again.

But what about the claim that Mary of Nazareth was conceived without sin?  This too is an extraordinary claim and so it too requires extraordinary proof.   But when we examine Scripture, we see no evidence that anyone thought Mary was conceived without sin nor any evidence that she was exempted from Adam’s curse.   While there are traditions about her sanctity from the womb and throughout her life, the church is mostly silent on the issue of her conception until the middle ages, and even then most theologians either didn’t see how it was possible for Mary to be conceived without sin or they outright denied it.  The list of those opposed to the doctrine reads like a Who’s Who of the medieval church:  Bernard of Clairvaux, Thomas Aquinas, Bonaventure, and Anselm of Canterbury, just to name a few.

But then in the early 1300s, two English Franciscans (William of Ware and Duns Scotus) came up with a way to overcome the objections that the doctrine was a “superstition” (so Bernard) or that it could not be reconciled with the uniqueness of Christ’s redemption (so Aquinas).  William used the argument from conveniens (Latin for “convenience”), which used the formula, potuit, decuit, fecit:  God could do it, it is fitting that He would do it, therefore He did do it.  Since Mary’s Immaculate Conception was both possible for God and fitting (on the grounds of the medieval supposition that never too much can be said of Mary), then it follows that God must have preserved Mary from contracting original sin, and so her conception was “immaculate” (stainless).

Scotus, for his part, theorized how God was able to preserve Mary from Original Sin without denying her need for redemption.  The eternal God, who sees all things as present,  must have applied the merits of the redemption to Mary before the redemption actually took place.  Thus Mary’s redemption was by exemption.  Instead of grace taking away the power of original sin after contracting it,  she was graced by not contracting it in the first place.

Without commenting on the merits (or demerits) of such arguments, take a step back and notice what is going on.  Despite the fact that Scripture and Tradition are at best silent on the issue, there is an undeniable desire on the part of many in the medieval church to believe in Mary's immaculate conception anyway.  How does this differ from the UFO enthusiast looking for reasons to justify his belief in ETs?  ETs could exist given the vastness of the universe, it is fitting that ETs would have visited Earth by now, given the age of the universe, therefore they did!  

Surely it is within God’s power to preserve someone from original sin; no one disputes this.  In fact, this would have been an extremely efficient way of redeeming the entire human race–not just Mary!  But to date, there is no evidence that God has preserved anyone from original sin, not even Mary. (Jesus being God cannot contract sin, and so was not “preserved” from it.)

Unless of course you count alleged supernatural events such as apparitions as evidence.  William of Ware put a lot of stock in the legend that Bernard of Clairvaux, soon after his death, appeared to a lay brother in a white garment with one small stain: his denial of the Immaculate Conception.   St. Bridget of Sweden (d. 1373) claimed that Mary appeared to her and personally confirmed the Immaculate Conception.  In 1830, just twenty-four years before the formal declaration of the Immaculate Conception as a must-believe dogma, St. Catherine Labouré claimed to have had a vision of Mary as the Immaculate Conception standing on the world with rays of light emanating from her hands to illuminate the earth.  The vision was framed with the words, “O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.”  This image is on the popular miraculous medal available at most Catholic kitsch stores.

Just as the medieval imagination was fertile ground for believing in visions as confirmation of doctrines, so the Romanticism of the late nineteenth century paved the way for sentiment to triumph over reason.  On December 8, 1854, after having consulted with 603 bishops (56 of whom dissented), Pope Pius IX issued the bull, Ineffabilis Deus, which formally (and infallibly) defined the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, and put the Catholic Church ® on a dogmatic  path of no return.  Not surprisingly, shortly after (1862) the definition a major Marian apparition took place that had the effect of confirming the doctrine in  pious imagination.  Near Lourdes in France, a girl of 14 named Bernadette Soubirous claimed that Mary appeared to her and said, “I am the Immaculate Conception.”  The miraculous healings that followed could only serve to confirm the already existing belief.

The parallel to belief in ETs  is instructive.  Since the dawn of the space age and the realization that the stars are within our grasp, there has been a corresponding increase in  UFO sightings, abduction stories and the like.  Movies, science fiction novels, T.V.,  and the occasional Roswell documentary have collectively helped to solidify belief in ETs for those who already believe in them and predispose others to the idea that there just might be some intelligent life “out there” after all.  When all of these phenomena are combined with a speculative theory that can explain how these phenomena might be possible, the result is fairly analogous to what has happened in Roman Catholicism with respect to Mary.  The major difference, of course, is that no one is required to believe in ETs.  But Roman Catholics are required to believe in the Immaculate Conception.  (And the theory that Mary was abducted into Heaven, also known as the dogma of the Assumption.)

When the Protestant reformers began to jettison longstanding beliefs and practices that were not in accord with scripture, they did so with the conviction that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that only scripture could count as evidence that is extraordinary since only it is divinely inspired.   Tradition, reason and even experience could also be brought to bear as confirmation for what is already found in scripture. But they could not substitute for a clear foundation in scripture. Jesus and the apostles relied on scripture for that kind of extraordinary evidence, Protestants think it only prudent to do the same.  And so the process for accepting or rejecting a dogma of the church is rather straightforward.  Justify the belief before you believe in it, and don’t ask anyone to believe in it until you have.

Roman Catholicism has reversed this process any number of times throughout its history, especially since the Reformation,  and has gone on to dogmatize beliefs that have little to no basis in scripture and sometimes little to no basis in tradition.  Instead, Rome takes into consideration a hodgepodge of mutually reinforcing streams of “evidence,” such as liturgical practice, pious devotion, private revelations, the polling of bishops and speculative arguments about how “fitting” the doctrine is.  And if this isn’t enough, the matter can be settled definitively by an infallible papal decree, which means the doctrine must be held to be true simply by virtue of the fact that a pope intends to define the belief as a revealed dogma.

All too often in Roman Catholicism, the tail has wagged the dog–or dogma in this case.  Too often Rome has formally defined longstanding beliefs before it has produced good evidence for those beliefs.  Would it not be more prudent to first examine whether there was sufficient proof for those beliefs to begin with?

Having studied historical and systematic theology in a Pontifical school of theology, I have witnessed this dog-wagging process over and over again:  Begin first with the supposition that a belief is true (or at least accept the fact that you’re stuck with it), and then work backwards to find out how the belief came about in the first place and how it coheres with the rest of the content of the faith.  If you think the doctrine is defensible, all the better.  If you don’t, then try to salvage the doctrine by coming up with a more palatable interpretation.

For instance, Catholic theologian, Richard P. McBrien, says this of the Immaculate Conception:


The dogma of the Immaculate Conception teaches that Mary was exempt in a unique and exceptional way from the normal and the usual impact of sin, or, more positively, that she was given a greater degree of grace (i.e, God was more intensely present to her than to others) in view of her role as the “God-bearer.”  So profound is her union with God in grace, in anticipation of her maternal function and in virtue of the redemptive grace of Christ, that she alone remains faithful to God’s will throughout her entire life.  She is truly redeemed, but in an exceptional and unique manner.  The Immaculate Conception shows that God can be, and is utterly gracious toward us, not by reason of our merits but by reason of divine love and mercy alone (Richard P. McBrien, Catholicism, [San Francisco: Harper, 1994],  1101)

McBrien is widely regarded by conservative Catholics as a dissenter, and we can see why.  Although he claims to affirm the doctrine, he does so in a way that fails to affirm the traditional propositions of exemption from original sin and life long sinlessness.   Instead, he interprets the dogma as an example of God’s graciousness in redemption apart from our works, as if the original intention behind the doctrine were to affirm a more or less Protestant principle of sola gratia.

For McBrien, the Immaculate Conception really tells us more about God than it does about Mary.  In this way, the otherwise disagreeable aspects of the dogma are rendered innocuous and so, in good conscience, he can go about his merry way satisfied in the knowledge that the Immaculate Conception  is really “so much more” than a mere affirmation of Mary’s sinlessness.

I’d say this is fairly representative of how theology is done in many liberal Roman Catholic seminaries and theology schools.  Virtually no importance is given to the idea of testing whether or not the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church are true.  Some of my systematic theology classes reminded me of the music appreciation class I had as an undergraduate: Sit back, listen and “appreciate” how the doctrines of the church play together like a symphony.   When examined, I was not asked if I thought a belief was true or not; nor was I required to back up my beliefs with any kind of evidence.  That would have been too much like the scholasticism of a bygone era.   Instead, I was asked to name my favorite systematic theologians and articulate how they had integrated the dogmas of the church into their various systems.

In retrospect, I can see why Dogma Appreciation 101 was all my systematic theology courses could ever be.  Once a doctrine is formally defined by Rome, then the truth of the matter is moot.  Why argue against a doctrine if you’re stuck with it?  And why defend a doctrine that needs no defending?  The only recourse is to “appreciate” it.  If you happen to agree with the doctrine, all the better.  If you do not, then try to make it say something more to your liking.

Once you are a member of a denomination that believes itself to be incapable of teaching error in matters of faith or morals, then theology can only ever be an exercise in appreciating infallible truths.  There still may be room for “synthetic” efforts to articulate the dogmas of the church in an ever more fresh and meaningful way.  But there can be no room for any true “analytic” efforts to evaluate whether or not the dogmas of the church are still worth believing in light of the evidence, or as is more often the case, the lack thereof.

Live long and prosper.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: mary; salvation; sin; worship
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 221-225 next last
To: knarf

Perhaps you should read this simplified description:

Despite differences in their theology, Southern German cities aligned with Swiss reformer Zwingli joined other German powers following Luther to sign on to the ‘Protest’ as one. They thus became known as Protestants, those who protested.

http://europeanhistory.about.com/od/reformation/p/proriginprot.htm

And a different take:

The Diet of the Holy Roman Empire, assembled at Speyer in April, 1529, resolved that, according to a decree promulgated at the Diet of Worms (1521), communities in which the new religion was so far established that it could not without great trouble be altered should be free to maintain it, but until the meeting of the council they should introduce no further innovations in religion, and should not forbid the Mass, or hinder Catholics from assisting thereat.

Against this decree, and especially against the last article, the adherents of the new Evangel — the Elector Frederick of Saxony, the Landgrave of Hesse, the Margrave Albert of Brandenburg, the Dukes of Lüneburg, the Prince of Anhalt, together with the deputies of fourteen of the free and imperial cities — entered a solemn protest as unjust and impious. The meaning of the protest was that the dissentients did not intend to tolerate Catholicism within their borders. On that account they were called Protestants.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm


41 posted on 03/26/2015 1:37:31 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: quadrant
But simply because they are bigger than I am, does not make them true.

My sentiments as well............

42 posted on 03/26/2015 1:38:32 PM PDT by varon (Para bellum)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: paladinan
>>...and it says that WHERE, in the Bible, exactly? Chapter and verse, please, since you're an adherent to "sola Scriptura".<<

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full (plērēs) of grace (charitos) and fortitude, did great wonders and signs among the people.

Greek - plērēs - Definition: full, abounding in, complete, completely occupied with. [http://biblehub.com/greek/4134.htm]

Greek - charitos - Definition: (a) grace, as a gift or blessing brought to man by Jesus Christ [http://biblehub.com/greek/5485.htm]

John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full (plērēs) of grace (charitos) and truth.

The Holy Spirit specifically described those two as full of grace. No such designation was given to Mary.

43 posted on 03/26/2015 1:39:27 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: knarf
Neither Luther nor Calvin "created" "protestantism" By definition, protestantism is the state of being in protest (in this case, religious) ... a state which most all people are guilty

Oh, come now! Anyone with sense knows that the word "protestantism", in the context of this conversation, refers to the spiritual heirs of Luther, Calvin, and the so-called "Reformation". As per dictionary.com:
Protestant

noun
1. any Western Christian who is not an adherent of a Catholic, Anglican, or Eastern Church.
2. an adherent of any of those Christian bodies that separated from the Church of Rome during the Reformation, or of any group descended from them.
3. (originally) any of the German princes who protested against the decision of the Diet of Speyer in 1529, which had denounced the Reformation.
4. (lowercase) a person who protests.
I'll give you this, at least: your idea made it to the list as the quaternary definition, behind only three others! :)

Seriously, though... are you joking?

Perhaps you should stop using a mis-used word and start using "non-Catholic"

FRiend, "Protestantism" is a word coined by Protestants! I certainly didn't invent it... and I certainly didn't slip it in "dictionary.com" while people weren't looking! The fact that you don't care for the word is, frankly, beside the point; it's a well-known, canonical term which is in no way derogatory to Protestants.

Besides... "non-Catholic" would include (at least to some extent) the Eastern Orthodox, who reject Sola Scriptura absolutely, and who believe the vast majority of what the Church teaches... so that term simply wouldn't do. No... using "Protestant" is simple, recognizable, and efficient for the purposes of this conversation... and I'm afraid it's here to stay.

It is one who is not a Catholic that will state things the Catholic interprets as hostile .. thus "protestant"

I do not automatically (or even readily) assume that Protestant commentary is hostile (at least, not to me or to Catholics, or even to the Church per se); on the contrary, I've have many pleasant chats about theology with Protestants who, while disagreeing with the Church (and with me) about many points, were very civil and respectful and reasonable. This forum, on the other hand, has a paucity of such noble souls among the Protestant population, and it has a startlingly large population of anti-Catholic-Church Protestants whose commentary ranges from the hostile to the disingenuous to the mendacious; it is against THEM that I brace myself (for example) for hostility, whenever anything which savors of the Catholic Church is even mentioned.
44 posted on 03/26/2015 1:41:20 PM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: paladinan
>>That's both a false dilemma, and a silly absurdity; St. John, on Patmos, might as well have said that he "will listen only to the voice of God, and not the voice of any silly angel", if this idea (which you typed) were implemented.<<

So you would claim that it was not by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that John wrote that?

45 posted on 03/26/2015 1:41:34 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: quadrant

“...does not make them true.” That “belief” works for you. So be it. To each his own.


46 posted on 03/26/2015 1:55:12 PM PDT by Sasparilla (If you want peace, prepare for war.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Gamecock; Trapped Behind Enemy Lines
If I ever meet you I’ll buy you a beer. I admire a Catholic with integrity.

I was one of those at one time, but I will not do any swimming. 🙈🙉🙊

47 posted on 03/26/2015 1:55:25 PM PDT by Mark17 (Beyond the sunset, O blissful morning, when with our Savior, Heaven is begun. Earth's toiling ended)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: CynicalBear
Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full (plērēs) of grace (charitos) and fortitude, did great wonders and signs among the people.

First of all: where on earth do you get that? My Greek text of Acts 6:8 has the word "pisteos" (faith), rather than "charitos".

Second: the word "kecharitomene" is a perfect passive participle (you can tell by the "stutter" at the beginning of the word), meaning an utter completeness which perdures at the time of the word's mention. If you doubt that, let me show you one other key place where the Bible uses a perfect passive participle:
"When Jesus had received the vinegar, He said, "It is finished" (tetelestai); and He bowed His head and gave up His Spirit." (John 19:30)
Now, if you'd like to suggest that THIS perfect passive participle (which is quite rare in the NT) referred to something "finished somewhat, for now, etc."--and not decisively, completely, and whose effects perdure... well... you're free to do so, but I wouldn't recommend it.
48 posted on 03/26/2015 1:59:31 PM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: SpirituTuo
Yeah, I've read many of those attempts. Doesn't work. I equate it to emptying a wagon load of corn.

If I unload 200 bu wagon load of grain into a 1000 bu bin which had been empty I have completely unloaded that wagon. It wasn't the wagon that unloaded itself but it was I who did it. When I completed unloading that wagon it was complete and wouldn't need to be done again. That did NOT fill that 1000bu bin.

49 posted on 03/26/2015 2:00:30 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: CynicalBear
So you would claim that it was not by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that John wrote that?

(??) No. Was my answer so very difficult to understand? I was, rather, pointing to the fact that the comment about "listening to God RATHER than to the Catholic Church (Who speaks with God's voice)" is silly nonsense, just as a statement about "listening to God, RATHER than the angel (who speaks with God's voice)" would be silly nonsense.
50 posted on 03/26/2015 2:02:56 PM PDT by paladinan (Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: CynicalBear

Respectfully, I don’t understand your example and its connection to the thread.


51 posted on 03/26/2015 2:05:20 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

To: SpirituTuo

So you didn’t read the site you posted ey? LOL I’ll leave you to wonder.


52 posted on 03/26/2015 2:08:27 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies]

To: paladinan

John was listening to God the Holy Spirit. Your injection of an angel is immaterial.


53 posted on 03/26/2015 2:09:36 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: Mark17

I’ll buy you one too!


54 posted on 03/26/2015 2:11:01 PM PDT by Gamecock ("The Christian who has stopped repenting has stopped growing." A.W. Pink)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: paladinan
This forum, on the other hand, has a paucity of such noble souls among the Protestant population, and it has a startlingly large population of anti-Catholic-Church Protestants whose commentary ranges from the hostile to the disingenuous to the mendacious;

A little redundancy there, eh ?

55 posted on 03/26/2015 2:16:52 PM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: CynicalBear

The word “grain” doesn’t show up in any of links I posted. Which link are you speaking of, so I may better understand what you are trying to communicate.


56 posted on 03/26/2015 2:21:39 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

I am a loyal and faithful Catholic who practices my faith.


I am not a Catholic but I disagree, just because Jesus had brothers and sisters does not mean a thing.

If Mary had other children why would Jesus have appointed John to take care of her.

They were most likely older step brothers and sisters.


57 posted on 03/26/2015 3:14:09 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: ex-snook

I believe Jesus was Mary’s only child. Jesus went to Jerusalem and stayed there until Mary and Joseph returned and hear him speaking.


Probably true the brothers and sisters Jesus had was probably older than him and he was Mary`s only child.


58 posted on 03/26/2015 3:18:19 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Trapped Behind Enemy Lines

I first learned that Jesus had brothers and sisters in a Bible study class taught by a Catholic priest in a Catholic church.


I agree we should just stick to what the scriptures say, and it is very plain that Jesus had brothers and sisters.

But to say Mary had other children is just adding to scripture, no scripture like that there.


59 posted on 03/26/2015 3:27:04 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Mark17

Two of those half brothers of Jesus, James and Jude, wrote books in the New Testament.


It makes more sense they were step brothers since they were not Mary`s Children.


60 posted on 03/26/2015 3:30:21 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 221-225 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson