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Why Rome Can Only Appreciate, Rather than Prove the Immaculate Conception
Fallibility ^ | May 1, 2013 | Michael Taylor

Posted on 03/26/2015 11:36:04 AM PDT by RnMomof7

Why Rome Can Only Appreciate, Rather than Prove the Immaculate Conception

Should we believe something because we think it is true, or should we think something is true because we first believe?  For example, if you believe that extra-terrestrials have visited the earth, then you are likely to believe in UFO sightings and  alien abduction stories, and conspiracy theories about government coverups as confirmation of what you already believe.  This doesn’t mean that you believe that every UFO sighting or abduction story is real.  Nor does this mean that you buy into every conspiracy theory out there.  But if you are already inclined to believe in ETs (perhaps you or someone you trust has had a “close encounter” of some kind), then you are likely to view the “evidence” in a way that confirms what you already believe.

On the other hand, you may be skeptical, even if in principle you are open to the idea of extra-terrestrial life.  Perhaps you view the vastness of the universe as probability for the existence of intelligent life on another planet, but doubt that anyone has developed the technology that would enable interstellar travel.  In this case, UFO sightings, abduction stories and conspiracy theories probably won’t persuade you to change your mind, since there may be plausible alternative explanations for all of these alleged phenomena.

The question, then, is on what basis should you believe the claim that extra-terrestrials have visited planet Earth?  The only rational answer is to believe on the basis of credible evidence.  As Carl Sagan said it, “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.”

The same can be said of the claims of Christianity.  For example, take the claim “He is risen.”   This is an extraordinary claim, and no reasonable person ought to accept it without extraordinary proof.  That doesn’t mean we have to put our finger into the holes in Jesus’ hands in order to warrant belief.  But it does mean we need more than hearsay.  Providentially, we do have extraordinary evidence to back up this claim.  An empty tomb that was under guard, hundreds of eyewitnesses, an otherwise improbable and inexplicable growth of Christianity, and no alternative explanation that has any plausibility whatsoever.  In short, all the evidence points inescapably to one conclusion: Jesus of Nazareth died and rose again.

But what about the claim that Mary of Nazareth was conceived without sin?  This too is an extraordinary claim and so it too requires extraordinary proof.   But when we examine Scripture, we see no evidence that anyone thought Mary was conceived without sin nor any evidence that she was exempted from Adam’s curse.   While there are traditions about her sanctity from the womb and throughout her life, the church is mostly silent on the issue of her conception until the middle ages, and even then most theologians either didn’t see how it was possible for Mary to be conceived without sin or they outright denied it.  The list of those opposed to the doctrine reads like a Who’s Who of the medieval church:  Bernard of Clairvaux, Thomas Aquinas, Bonaventure, and Anselm of Canterbury, just to name a few.

But then in the early 1300s, two English Franciscans (William of Ware and Duns Scotus) came up with a way to overcome the objections that the doctrine was a “superstition” (so Bernard) or that it could not be reconciled with the uniqueness of Christ’s redemption (so Aquinas).  William used the argument from conveniens (Latin for “convenience”), which used the formula, potuit, decuit, fecit:  God could do it, it is fitting that He would do it, therefore He did do it.  Since Mary’s Immaculate Conception was both possible for God and fitting (on the grounds of the medieval supposition that never too much can be said of Mary), then it follows that God must have preserved Mary from contracting original sin, and so her conception was “immaculate” (stainless).

Scotus, for his part, theorized how God was able to preserve Mary from Original Sin without denying her need for redemption.  The eternal God, who sees all things as present,  must have applied the merits of the redemption to Mary before the redemption actually took place.  Thus Mary’s redemption was by exemption.  Instead of grace taking away the power of original sin after contracting it,  she was graced by not contracting it in the first place.

Without commenting on the merits (or demerits) of such arguments, take a step back and notice what is going on.  Despite the fact that Scripture and Tradition are at best silent on the issue, there is an undeniable desire on the part of many in the medieval church to believe in Mary's immaculate conception anyway.  How does this differ from the UFO enthusiast looking for reasons to justify his belief in ETs?  ETs could exist given the vastness of the universe, it is fitting that ETs would have visited Earth by now, given the age of the universe, therefore they did!  

Surely it is within God’s power to preserve someone from original sin; no one disputes this.  In fact, this would have been an extremely efficient way of redeeming the entire human race–not just Mary!  But to date, there is no evidence that God has preserved anyone from original sin, not even Mary. (Jesus being God cannot contract sin, and so was not “preserved” from it.)

Unless of course you count alleged supernatural events such as apparitions as evidence.  William of Ware put a lot of stock in the legend that Bernard of Clairvaux, soon after his death, appeared to a lay brother in a white garment with one small stain: his denial of the Immaculate Conception.   St. Bridget of Sweden (d. 1373) claimed that Mary appeared to her and personally confirmed the Immaculate Conception.  In 1830, just twenty-four years before the formal declaration of the Immaculate Conception as a must-believe dogma, St. Catherine Labouré claimed to have had a vision of Mary as the Immaculate Conception standing on the world with rays of light emanating from her hands to illuminate the earth.  The vision was framed with the words, “O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.”  This image is on the popular miraculous medal available at most Catholic kitsch stores.

Just as the medieval imagination was fertile ground for believing in visions as confirmation of doctrines, so the Romanticism of the late nineteenth century paved the way for sentiment to triumph over reason.  On December 8, 1854, after having consulted with 603 bishops (56 of whom dissented), Pope Pius IX issued the bull, Ineffabilis Deus, which formally (and infallibly) defined the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, and put the Catholic Church ® on a dogmatic  path of no return.  Not surprisingly, shortly after (1862) the definition a major Marian apparition took place that had the effect of confirming the doctrine in  pious imagination.  Near Lourdes in France, a girl of 14 named Bernadette Soubirous claimed that Mary appeared to her and said, “I am the Immaculate Conception.”  The miraculous healings that followed could only serve to confirm the already existing belief.

The parallel to belief in ETs  is instructive.  Since the dawn of the space age and the realization that the stars are within our grasp, there has been a corresponding increase in  UFO sightings, abduction stories and the like.  Movies, science fiction novels, T.V.,  and the occasional Roswell documentary have collectively helped to solidify belief in ETs for those who already believe in them and predispose others to the idea that there just might be some intelligent life “out there” after all.  When all of these phenomena are combined with a speculative theory that can explain how these phenomena might be possible, the result is fairly analogous to what has happened in Roman Catholicism with respect to Mary.  The major difference, of course, is that no one is required to believe in ETs.  But Roman Catholics are required to believe in the Immaculate Conception.  (And the theory that Mary was abducted into Heaven, also known as the dogma of the Assumption.)

When the Protestant reformers began to jettison longstanding beliefs and practices that were not in accord with scripture, they did so with the conviction that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and that only scripture could count as evidence that is extraordinary since only it is divinely inspired.   Tradition, reason and even experience could also be brought to bear as confirmation for what is already found in scripture. But they could not substitute for a clear foundation in scripture. Jesus and the apostles relied on scripture for that kind of extraordinary evidence, Protestants think it only prudent to do the same.  And so the process for accepting or rejecting a dogma of the church is rather straightforward.  Justify the belief before you believe in it, and don’t ask anyone to believe in it until you have.

Roman Catholicism has reversed this process any number of times throughout its history, especially since the Reformation,  and has gone on to dogmatize beliefs that have little to no basis in scripture and sometimes little to no basis in tradition.  Instead, Rome takes into consideration a hodgepodge of mutually reinforcing streams of “evidence,” such as liturgical practice, pious devotion, private revelations, the polling of bishops and speculative arguments about how “fitting” the doctrine is.  And if this isn’t enough, the matter can be settled definitively by an infallible papal decree, which means the doctrine must be held to be true simply by virtue of the fact that a pope intends to define the belief as a revealed dogma.

All too often in Roman Catholicism, the tail has wagged the dog–or dogma in this case.  Too often Rome has formally defined longstanding beliefs before it has produced good evidence for those beliefs.  Would it not be more prudent to first examine whether there was sufficient proof for those beliefs to begin with?

Having studied historical and systematic theology in a Pontifical school of theology, I have witnessed this dog-wagging process over and over again:  Begin first with the supposition that a belief is true (or at least accept the fact that you’re stuck with it), and then work backwards to find out how the belief came about in the first place and how it coheres with the rest of the content of the faith.  If you think the doctrine is defensible, all the better.  If you don’t, then try to salvage the doctrine by coming up with a more palatable interpretation.

For instance, Catholic theologian, Richard P. McBrien, says this of the Immaculate Conception:


The dogma of the Immaculate Conception teaches that Mary was exempt in a unique and exceptional way from the normal and the usual impact of sin, or, more positively, that she was given a greater degree of grace (i.e, God was more intensely present to her than to others) in view of her role as the “God-bearer.”  So profound is her union with God in grace, in anticipation of her maternal function and in virtue of the redemptive grace of Christ, that she alone remains faithful to God’s will throughout her entire life.  She is truly redeemed, but in an exceptional and unique manner.  The Immaculate Conception shows that God can be, and is utterly gracious toward us, not by reason of our merits but by reason of divine love and mercy alone (Richard P. McBrien, Catholicism, [San Francisco: Harper, 1994],  1101)

McBrien is widely regarded by conservative Catholics as a dissenter, and we can see why.  Although he claims to affirm the doctrine, he does so in a way that fails to affirm the traditional propositions of exemption from original sin and life long sinlessness.   Instead, he interprets the dogma as an example of God’s graciousness in redemption apart from our works, as if the original intention behind the doctrine were to affirm a more or less Protestant principle of sola gratia.

For McBrien, the Immaculate Conception really tells us more about God than it does about Mary.  In this way, the otherwise disagreeable aspects of the dogma are rendered innocuous and so, in good conscience, he can go about his merry way satisfied in the knowledge that the Immaculate Conception  is really “so much more” than a mere affirmation of Mary’s sinlessness.

I’d say this is fairly representative of how theology is done in many liberal Roman Catholic seminaries and theology schools.  Virtually no importance is given to the idea of testing whether or not the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church are true.  Some of my systematic theology classes reminded me of the music appreciation class I had as an undergraduate: Sit back, listen and “appreciate” how the doctrines of the church play together like a symphony.   When examined, I was not asked if I thought a belief was true or not; nor was I required to back up my beliefs with any kind of evidence.  That would have been too much like the scholasticism of a bygone era.   Instead, I was asked to name my favorite systematic theologians and articulate how they had integrated the dogmas of the church into their various systems.

In retrospect, I can see why Dogma Appreciation 101 was all my systematic theology courses could ever be.  Once a doctrine is formally defined by Rome, then the truth of the matter is moot.  Why argue against a doctrine if you’re stuck with it?  And why defend a doctrine that needs no defending?  The only recourse is to “appreciate” it.  If you happen to agree with the doctrine, all the better.  If you do not, then try to make it say something more to your liking.

Once you are a member of a denomination that believes itself to be incapable of teaching error in matters of faith or morals, then theology can only ever be an exercise in appreciating infallible truths.  There still may be room for “synthetic” efforts to articulate the dogmas of the church in an ever more fresh and meaningful way.  But there can be no room for any true “analytic” efforts to evaluate whether or not the dogmas of the church are still worth believing in light of the evidence, or as is more often the case, the lack thereof.

Live long and prosper.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: mary; salvation; sin; worship
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To: WVKayaker

From what logical fallacy do I suffer?

What non-scriptural claims were made by me or by the Church who assembled the Canon of Scripture?

What assumptions do you believe the Church made?

This posted article was written by Michael Taylor, who by his own admittance, has “...thinly veiled contempt for the Catholic faith...”

We are called to love one another (John 13:34). Contempt is not love, hardly. Further, the author is a believer in the philosophy of Sola Scriptura, which is not found in the Bible.

Do you wish to align yourself with such a person, and such a point of view?


121 posted on 03/27/2015 2:18:52 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: SpirituTuo
From what logical fallacy do I suffer?

The first would be your cult's self-proclaiming to be the "only true church" by proclaiming to be the "only true church"!

This internet would not be large enough to enumerate all the rest!

I align myself with Christ. My identity comes from Him!

I do have contempt for any group claiming to hold all the truth, which offers constant inconsistency from what can be found in Scripture.

God gave us that Scripture, not some cult!

122 posted on 03/27/2015 2:25:03 PM PDT by WVKayaker (Impeachment is the Constitution's answer for a derelict, incompetent president! -Sarah Palin 7/26/14)
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To: Elsie

You are aware the Canon of Scripture is a matter of Tradition, specifically because the Church assembled it in 393.

The New Testament as we read today, was written AFTER the resurrection, and after the laying on of hands of Matthias.

The Church, ordained by Jesus Christ, was responsible for this definitive act, like those before it, as well as definitive teachings. One only need look at St. Ignatius of Antioch.

Teaching was done mostly by oral tradition. Jesus didn’t commit a word to paper. Rather, He left it to His Church to decide.

Consider those things.


123 posted on 03/27/2015 2:27:54 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: CynicalBear
Ambassadors of Christ
124 posted on 03/27/2015 2:46:11 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SpirituTuo
The notions that Mary was not a perpetual virgin, as well as additional children (step or otherwise), were around and refuted in the 8th century.

Only 800 years?

HMMMmmm...

125 posted on 03/27/2015 2:48:20 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SpirituTuo
Again, this argument is an ancient heresy.

Wave the imperial hand.

126 posted on 03/27/2015 2:49:21 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SpirituTuo
The teaching of the Catholic Church is that there were no step children, or natural children, except for Jesus.

We understand that is Rome teaching.

We also understand that the Bible indicates something different.

127 posted on 03/27/2015 2:50:34 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ravenwolf

Abishag the Shunammite


128 posted on 03/27/2015 2:51:34 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Cap'n Crunch
If you think those things are “made up” you don’t belong in the Catholic Church and you certainly don’t know the Faith.

Honest!

We ain't makin' this up!!


129 posted on 03/27/2015 2:54:52 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

It is ancient, during the time of St. Bede. It is also a heresy, as those who taught it were heretical to the Church.

These are definitions, like them or not.


130 posted on 03/27/2015 2:55:08 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: SpirituTuo
Consider how many different interpretations are given by non-Catholics on John 6, and why it doesn’t mean what it says.

Simple question: direct answer...


 

John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”



131 posted on 03/27/2015 2:56:31 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SpirituTuo
Further, the author is a believer in the philosophy of Sola Scriptura, which is not found in the Bible.

Feel free to post your sources of TRADITION




NIV Matthew 2:5
"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:

NIV Matthew 4:1-11
1. Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
2. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4. Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
5. Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
7. Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10. Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "
11. Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

NIV Matthew 11:10
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Matthew 21:13
"It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a `den of robbers.' "

NIV Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him.

NIV Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

NIV Mark 7:6-7
6. He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
7. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

NIV Mark 9:11-13
11. And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
12. Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?
13. But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

NIV Mark 11:17
And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "`My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations' ? But you have made it `a den of robbers.' "

NIV Mark 14:27
"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'

NIV Luke 1:1-4
1. Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2. just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4. so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

NIV Luke 4:17-19
17. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18. "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,
19. to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

NIV Luke 7:27
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Luke 10:26
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

NIV Luke 18:31-33
31. Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
32. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.
33. On the third day he will rise again."

NIV Luke 20:17-18
17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ' ?
18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

NIV Luke 21:22
For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

NIV Luke 22:37
It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

NIV Luke 24:44-47
44. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45. Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47. and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

NIV John 2:17
His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."
 
NIV John 6:31
Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "

NIV John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

NIV John 12:14-16
14. Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
15. "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."
16. At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

NIV John 15:25
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'

NIV John 20:30-31
30. Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
31. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

NIV Acts 1:20
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, "`May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "`May another take his place of leadership.'

NIV Acts 7:42
But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: "`Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?

NIV Acts 13:29
When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.

NIV Acts 13:32-33
32. "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
33. he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "`You are my Son; today I have become your Father. '

NIV Acts 15:15-18
15. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16. "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
17. that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
18. that have been known for ages.

NIV Acts 23:5
Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: `Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.' "

NIV Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

NIV Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

NIV Romans 2:24
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

NIV Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

NIV Romans 3:10-12
10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

NIV Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

NIV Romans 4:23-24
23. The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
24. but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

NIV Romans 8:36
As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

NIV Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

NIV Romans 10:15
And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

NIV Romans 11:7-10
7. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
8. as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
9. And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."

NIV Romans 11:26-27
26. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

NIV Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

NIV Romans 14:11
It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

NIV Romans 15:3-4
3. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."
4. For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

NIV Romans 15:7-12
7. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
8. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
9. so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name."
10. Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
11. And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."
12. And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

NIV Romans 15:21
Rather, as it is written: "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:31
Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

NIV 1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --

NIV 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ;
20. and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:9
For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:7
Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

NIV 1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

NIV 2 Corinthians 1:13-14
13. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,
14. as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.

NIV 2 Corinthians 4:13-14
13. it is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,
14. because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.

NIV 2 Corinthians 8:15
as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."

NIV Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

NIV Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

NIV Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

NIV Galatians 4:27
For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."

NIV Hebrews 10:7
Then I said, `Here I am-- it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"

NIV 1 Peter 1:15-16
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

NIV 2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

NIV 1 John 2:12-14
12. I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.
14. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

132 posted on 03/27/2015 2:58:12 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SpirituTuo
Rather, He left it to His Church to decide.

And it 'decided' that a bunch of stuff SHOULD have been 'scripture' but somehow it wasn't included.

Therefore, Mary herself had to visit earth and get the data included.


I wish on one of her future trips she'll bring us some unicorns!

133 posted on 03/27/2015 3:00:36 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: SpirituTuo

Finally, it was the Catholic Church who decided, by inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the canon of Scripture.


So did the Catholic Church deliberately leave some of the truths out of the Bible so they would have something to argue with the protestants about, not being real serious but it is a question that any one would think about.


134 posted on 03/27/2015 3:15:11 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: Elsie

Abishag the Shunammite


Would you please speak English?


135 posted on 03/27/2015 3:16:23 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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To: Elsie

Others like you presume it indicates something different.

Consider this: the foundation of Christianity was built on Peter and through the Church Fathers. Heresies came and went.

When Luther hit the scene, he not only acknowledged the Church Fathers, but commended them for study.

Now, the quandary non-Catholics have is whether to accept what the Church Fathers taught or not. If they were wrong about one element, how can they be right on another?

Fundamentally, where does one start disagreeing with the Catholic Church? Is it 393 with the close of the Canon? Is it the Council of Trent? When did the Church go wrong, and how did it happen?

Does one agree with the Apostle’s Creed? How about the Nicene Creed? Luther wanted to pick and choose, the same with the other Reformation-era people. With no authority, they disagreed with each other and splintered into a number of disagreeing factions.

If one denies the Church Fathers, then they deny the fundamental teachings of Jesus Christ, past by oral tradition. St. Ignatius of Antioch was a disciple of St. John the Apostle. He taught what was taught to him, and was Bishop of Antioch. It doesn’t get much more apostolic than that!

Here are few words from him:

“”And from the prince of this world were hidden Mary’s virginity and her child-bearing, in like manner also the death of the Lord.” The doctrine of the Trinity, too, he plainly takes for granted, and we detect an approach to later definitions of Christ’s nature when we read in the same letter: “There is one Physician of flesh and spirit, begotten and unbegotten, God in man, true life in death, son of Mary and son of God, first suffering and then beyond suffering, Jesus Christ our Lord.” No less remarkable are the phrases he uses to describe the Eucharist. It is “the flesh of Christ,” “the gift of God,” “the medicine of immortality.” Repeatedly he emphasizes the loyalty and obedience due the bishop as the transmitter of true apostolic tradition, and the necessity of unity and peace. Finally, it is in his letter to the church of Smyrna that for the first time in Christian literature “the Catholic Church”[6] is spoken of. “Wheresoever,” he writes, “the bishop appears, there let the people be, even as wheresoever Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius’ martyrdom and his important contribution to the development of Church doctrine make it fitting that his name should occur in the Canon of the Mass.”

So, a disciple of the John the Apostle taught Mary’s virginity, the Real Presence, and spoke of the Catholic Church, all less than 75 years after the Resurrection.

These are the teachers of Christianity, preserved and passed down by the Catholic Church. It is up to you to agree or disagree.


136 posted on 03/27/2015 3:16:34 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: WVKayaker

You don’t appear to know what a logical fallacy is. Respectfully, here is a good summary: http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

It is not illogical for the Church, instituted by Jesus Christ Himself, would call itself the one true Church.

If that is your only example, it is quite thin.

God had the Catholic Church organize the Scripture. Luther decided to tamper with it. Who is opposing God there?

Do you hold love or hatred for your enemies? Contempt is not love. Please consider your emotions in light of what Jesus says: “A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.” John 13: 34-35.


137 posted on 03/27/2015 3:26:08 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: ravenwolf

No. Would the Holy Spirit allow that? Of course not.


138 posted on 03/27/2015 3:27:02 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: Elsie

Do you accept the Scriptures or not? Luther did until around 1517.

Who put the volume of Scripture together? The Catholic Church.


139 posted on 03/27/2015 3:38:07 PM PDT by SpirituTuo
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To: SpirituTuo

No. Would the Holy Spirit allow that? Of course not.


Just to be honest I don`t know.

I was explaining a Bible passage to some friends one time and I guess I was kind of proud of myself for thinking I had it all figured out.

But then I got to thinking of the Pharisee and the publican, the Pharisee told what a great guy he was and no doubt how smart he was and just kept on talking while the publican never said much because he knew that God could hear him.

The Pharisee probably never even realized God was listening to every word he said but figured people were listening.

Every now and then I am reminded of that and just wonder if God is laughing at my know it all stupidity.

So ive got to get off of here.

Have a good day.


140 posted on 03/27/2015 4:23:43 PM PDT by ravenwolf (s letters scripture.)
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