Posted on 01/21/2015 4:47:04 PM PST by RnMomof7
As a church history professor, I am sometimes asked how certain practices developed in church history. For example: When did the Roman Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox) emphasis on praying to saints and venerating relics and icons begin?
A somewhat obscure, but extremely helpful, book by John Calvin answers that question directly.
In his work, A Treatise on Relics, Calvin utilizes his extensive knowledge of church history to demonstrate that prayers to the saints, prayers for the dead, the veneration of relics, the lighting of candles (in homage to the saints), and the veneration of icons are all rooted in Roman paganism. Such practices infiltrated the Christian church after Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire in the fourth century.
Here is an excerpt from Calvin’s work that summarizes his thesis:
Hero-worship is innate to human nature, and it is founded on some of our noblest feelings, — gratitude, love, and admiration, — but which, like all other feelings, when uncontrolled by principle and reason, may easily degenerate into the wildest exaggerations, and lead to most dangerous consequences. It was by such an exaggeration of these noble feelings that [Roman] Paganism filled the Olympus with gods and demigods, — elevating to this rank men who have often deserved the gratitude of their fellow-creatures, by some signal services rendered to the community, or their admiration, by having performed some deeds which required a more than usual degree of mental and physical powers.
The same cause obtained for the Christian martyrs the gratitude and admiration of their fellow-Christians, and finally converted them into a kind of demigods. This was more particularly the case when the church began to be corrupted by her compromise with Paganism [during the fourth and fifth-centuries], which having been baptized without being converted, rapidly introduced into the Christian church, not only many of its rites and ceremonies, but even its polytheism, with this difference, that the divinities of Greece and Rome were replaced by Christian saints, many of whom received the offices of their Pagan predecessors.
The church in the beginning tolerated these abuses, as a temporary evil, but was afterwards unable to remove them; and they became so strong, particularly during the prevailing ignorance of the middle ages, that the church ended up legalizing, through her decrees, that at which she did nothing but wink at first.
In a footnote, Calvin gives specific examples of how Christians saints simply became substitutes for pagan deities.
Thus St. Anthony of Padua restores, like Mercury, stolen property; St. Hubert, like Diana, is the patron of sportsmen; St. Cosmas, like Esculapius, that of physicians, etc. In fact, almost every profession and trade, as well as every place, have their especial patron saint, who, like the tutelary divinity of the Pagans, receives particular hours from his or her protégés.
You can read the entire work on Google Books.
Calvin’s treatment includes a historical overview, quotes from the church fathers, and even citations from sixteenth-century Roman Catholic scholars. The result is an air-tight case for the true origin of many Catholic practices.
Calvin’s conclusion is that these practices are nothing more than idolatrous superstitions, rooted in ancient Roman paganism. Even today, five centuries later, his work still serves as a necessary warning to those who persist in such idolatry. Hence his concluding sentence: “Now, those who fall into this error must do so willingly, as no one can from henceforth plead ignorance on the subject as their excuse.”
This is the classic Battle of the Begged Question.
The organization says it is the window and the only window through which Christ, and indeed the bible, can be rightly seen.
What do you do with a claim like that. Well if you have nothing to compare it to, you can’t do anything. It is the most powerful one on the scene by definition. But if you find you can meet and accept and be accepted by Christ through the scripture, then suddenly another world opens. Luther didn’t just get a wild hair. He met Christ. He did try to get the church to listen and it wouldn’t.
The success of the evangelical model is the best proof of its fundamental rightness. It does not pretend to give unanimous human answers to a wide range of doctrinal questions. But that is to look at it for the wrong thing. It illustrates how sola scriptura, sola fide actually works and has legs and wings.
Air tight case eh? We’ll see self-ping ...
The vessel has been confused with its contents... also Peter was one of a kind, he met the incarnate Christ. How do you duplicate that as an authoritative position... you can’t.
Yes that was an outstanding post at 91. Truly one of the best I’ve read; like a blazing star in the midst of darkness. If I had any doubt he’s a priest it’s removed now. No one could write such a defense of (truly a promotion of) the Catholic Church and be lying about being a priest. It would be foolish to believe otherwise. Foolish and unreasonable.
I will keep you in prayer Father as I pray for all priests.
Who said it was? Why do Protestants deny the physical world? It was created by God and we live here in our journey to Heaven. It is real and tangible and has a purpose for the salvation of souls. Christ came into the world in the flesh to die a horrible death on a real, physical Cross. He was baptized (as are all of His people) in real water. He healed real, physical bodies of afflictions and even restored physical life. He raised real, physical bread and wine to be His own Body and Blood. To deny physical realities is to minimize the sacrifice of Christ and deny the reality of what will be glorified bodies raised physically to Heaven in the resurrection.
What goes in the mouth, goes into the stomach, and then into the sewer. You will never know Jesus apart from God's Truth. Attempting to bring Jesus back into the physical world and interact with him in the natural, will only end in frustration. He is seated next to His Father and His Blood is on the Eternal Mercy Seat until the end of the age of Grace. It is your faith that pleases God. (Matthew 15:16-20, Mark 7:18-23, Hebrews 11:6)
The physical world is not more real than the spiritual... but it is real and has a purpose than many overlook in their quest for "pure" spirituality.
Let's make this really simple. God created YOU in his image. God is a Spirit. You are a spiritual being (inner man, hidden man of the heart) made in the image of God. You have a body, and you have a soul (mind, will, and emotions). God created the Earth for you to enjoy. And then, sin entered the world, along with death. NOT JUST physical death, but even worse, spiritual death, which is separation from God. ALL mankind from Adam and Eve (who were created beings) with the only exception being Jesus, is born spiritually dead, or if you prefer, born with a sin nature.
There is no battle between Rome and Believers except in your mind. There is a battle for TRUTH. I don't care what flavor of church you attend as long as Jesus is your Lord. If you will notice, rarely if ever does anyone on this forum who is a "Protestant" ever invoke the name of their denomination, or even refer to themselves as one. Those demonically inspired, man-made divisions are irrelevant. Believers are one SPIRITUAL BODY OF CHRIST. There is neither Jew or Gentile, male or female, Baptist or Methodist, in the Body of Christ. There is ONLY ONE HEAD of the BODY - JESUS. There can be no other HEAD.
We live in a body in a physical universe, BUT the battle is SPIRITUAL, the Peace is SPIRITUAL, the Joy is SPIRITUAL, the Anointing is SPIRITUAL. (2 Corinthians 10:1-6) You enter the world as a spiritually dead person covered in flesh. You are SPIRITUALLY REBORN by faith in Jesus (the Word made flesh). That which is flesh is flesh, spirit is spirit. (John 1:1-14, 3:1-21) Read John 4 carefully.
John 4:21-24 (KJV) - 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
That time is NOW. Israel under the Old Covenant could not be spiritually reborn. They relied on the Law and sacrifices - physical rituals. The Body of Christ is not under the Law. We are spiritually reborn, cleansed from ALL unrighteousness. Made ALIVE IN CHRIST! We can have intimate fellowship with our Heavenly Father in Spirit and Truth! And it is WONDERFUL!! This revelation was given to Paul who taught it while he was on Earth, and left a clear written record primarily in Romans through Thessalonians. You can follow the progression of the message in the divine order of the books. Take your religious blinders off for a moment and imagine what you could do for the world if you could REALLY imitate Jesus. That can't be done without the Holy Spirit. That is why Jesus told the disciples to wait until they were endued with power. You need both the Word (Truth) AND the Holy Spirit. (Luke 24:46-49)
If you want to heal the sick, deliver the oppressed, transform the poor of this world, it aint gonna happen in the natural, with only your ability and religious hooey. Just look at all the religious Christians laboring and getting nowhere. There is a determined enemy that is stealing, killing, and destroying. Its through faith in Jesus, that you can overcome him (John 10:10, 1 Peter 5:8, James 4:7-10) Note the key qualifier in the verse below.
Mark 16:17-18 (KJV) - 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
What is the Believer to do in the world?
Ephesians 6:11-12 (KJV) - 11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
If you read all of Ephesians 6, you will note none of the armor or weapons mentioned are physical.
You are to know Satan's devices. (2 Corinthians 2:11) Give him no place. (Ephesians 4:27) Resist him. (James 4:7, 1 Peter 5:8-9) Overcome him by the Word (and not be deceived like Eve). (Matthew 4:1-11, 1 John 2:14) - Again, note it is NOT a physical battle, but a spiritual one that can only be won by faith, not human effort.
I leave you with the following verses to prayerfully consider. HERE is God's clear answer to your objection.
Romans 8:1-17 (KJV) - 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Galatians 5:13-26 (KJV) - 13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another. 16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
There is a HIGHER Truth than what you see with your senses. Cultivate this by studying God's Word, set your affection on Christ, on what is above. Religion is all about entertaining the senses, pride (which was Satan's downfall), and the reasoning of man (which is ignoring, embellishing, or misunderstanding God's Word, His Truth). Let the Word of God lift you up to a much higher level, True worship, True fellowship, THEN let LOVE HIMSELF, work through you to be a Blessing to the world.
2 Corinthians 4:16-18 (KJV) - 16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
See also 2 Corinthians 5, Galatians 3 - 5, Ephesians 1 - 6, Philippians 3, Colossians 1 - 3.
So you all actually believe the assortment of ill-conceived allegations expressed in that reply?
Other than the second sentence there (which appears true enough -- no real problem) the remainder of the wall-to-wall accusations are one unjustified attributing-of-motives and false accusation (when applied to "all" so-called Protestants) after another.
The indiscriminate nature of those comments, is a veritable grab-bag of self-justification for Roman Catholic hatreds and bitterness -- of virtually all Christians whom are not of the Church of Rome, yet inclusive also of Christians whom are born of Him, lumping all of the latter in with luke-warmish sorts who approach Christianity from a purely mental (fleshly mind) understanding.
Despite the lukewarmness (towards God) of seemingly many(?), there is likely a remnant of sorts within congregations of even the most liberal sort --- a remnant of those whom do worship God in spirit and in truth, although ultimately that must be left up to Christ Himself to determine, for there truly is none other who can open the scrolls...
Speaking of "veneration of saints", even there, among the "liberal" types, can be those whom venerate human beings, more so than they venerate (and further-- worship) God Almighty.
In that they may share a thing or two with *some* Catholics who are the fearful sort ---- whom will not approach the throne of Grace boldly, and prefer rather to have their own sinful natures remain hidden from themselves (as much as possible) slathering religiosity over that, the better to remain in darkness and semi-darkness, wherein they need not confront their own inward wretchedness.
Really.....
I wonder what the chapter and verse reference is for THAT......
The writer has no real clue about what *Protestantism* really believes, or Christians for that matter.
There was so much error in post 91 that it’s hard to know where to start in refuting it.
If that sounds as a blazing star in Catholic thinking, Catholics are in worse shape than I realized.
Okay. Show me the orthodox Christian theologians or others condemning the introduction of veneration of the saints in the Fourth Century.
Hint: There aren’t any, because veneration of the saints was not introduced in the Fourth Century and it wasn’t contrary to the Faith.
YOUR theory is that a majorly heretical, idolatrous practice swept through Christianity in the Fourth Century, and NOBODY NOTICED UNTIL the SIXTEENTH CENTURY.
“But God has commanded that, even if the priests, the pastors, and Christ-on-earth were incarnate devils, we be obedient and subject to them, not for their sakes, but for the sake of God, and out of obedience to Him.”
Really.....
I wonder what the chapter and verse reference is for THAT......
Matthew 23:2-3 would be an example Bible Chapter and verse from the lips of Jesus:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+23:2-3
“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
I started reading the Google book on the subject. Look at page 7 to see one pagan origin in the 2nd century.
Yes I do because it's been my experience. Everything that he said about Catholicism and everything he said about "Protestants" has been my experience with both (although I will grant you that the term "Protestant" as applied there is a bit nebulous.).
There may be many who experience what he writes about in the Catholic Church, outside the Church as well but that certainly isn't me. My experience outside the Church but in "Christianity" was a life full of Scripture study but no real transformation in my life, no real desire in me to change my ways because I was "saved" already, as Father described in 91.
If that's not your experience fine, in fact great! Praise God! But there is no way anyone can convince me that what Father wrote in 91 is false because I've lived both sides. For me to deny his words there would be akin to me also saying "The sky isn't really blue after all, I agree, because you have a better argument for a red sky".
Ok, let me try this one more time. And please read it this time.
Revelation 2:14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam,
You see there that there was already paganism creepting into the ekklesia. No one knows how that progressed. You're incessant demand to know who spoke up to oppose it is a none issue. The issue is that the apostles didn't teach it. Yet we see it creeping into the assemblies very early. I'm not even sure what you propose to show or prove by claiming no one opposed it.
Prayer to other then the one true God is pagan in origin and Christ and the apostles opposed anything pagan. As I have shown often the Catholic Church has "taken them into their service".
That’s what Matthew 23:2-3 says to you? Even if they were incarnate devils you should still follow them and obey them? If so that is truly pathetic.
YOU say it's pagan.
The apostles opposed anything pagan.
Therefore, the apostles opposed what YOU say is pagan.
The question-begging consists in your not noticing that it's YOU who say it's pagan. You have not established that it's pagan, or that the apostles opposed it.
And you provide no evidence that ANYBODY in Christianity condemned it AT THE TIME IT SUPPOSEDLY STARTED.
I call your attention again to the 1500-year SILENCE on the matter in all of Christendom. You refuse to acknowledge this 1500 years of total silence. Since when do heresies spring up in Christendom--and nobody notices?
God said in Deut. that we are not to worship Him in any way that the pagans worship their gods. Now, that demands that we know how the pagans worship their gods to know what not to do in our worship if Him. If you don’t care I don’t suppose it matters to you. Nuff said.
Tertullian of Carthage (c. 160–235)
It will be your duty, however, to adduce your proofs out of the Scriptures as plainly as we do, when we prove that He made His Word a Son to Himself. . . . All the Scriptures attest the clear existence of, and distinction in (the Persons of) the Trinity, and indeed furnish us with our Rule of faith. (Against Praxeas, 11)
Hippolytus (d. 235)
There is, brethren, one God, the knowledge of whom we gain from the Holy Scriptures, and from no other source. For just as a man if he wishes to be skilled in the wisdom of this world will find himself unable to get at it in any other way than by mastering the dogmas of philosophers, so all of us who wish to practice piety will be unable to learn its practice from any quarter than the oracles of God. Whatever things then the Holy Scriptures declare, at these let us look; and whatsoever things they teach these let us learn. (Against Heresies, 9)
Athanasius of Alexandria (296–373)
These are fountains of salvation, that they who thirst may be satisfied with the living words they contain. In these alone is proclaimed the doctrine of godliness. Let no man add to these, neither let him take ought from these. For concerning these the Lord put to shame the Sadducees, and said, ‘Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures.’ And He reproved the Jews, saying, ‘Search the Scriptures, for these are they that testify of Me.’ (Festal Letter 39, 6–7)
Augustine of Hippo (354–430)
Whereas, therefore, in every question, which relates to life and conduct, not only teaching, but exhortation also is necessary; in order that by teaching we may know what is to be done, and by exhortation may be incited not to think it irksome to do what we already know is to be done; what more can I teach you, than what we read in the Apostle? For holy Scripture establishes a rule to our teaching, that we dare not “be wiser than we ought;” but be wise, as he himself says, “unto soberness, according as unto each God hath allotted the measure of faith.” Be it not therefore for me to teach you any other thing, save to expound to you the words of the Teacher, and to treat of them as the Lord shall have given to me. (The Good of Widowhood, 2)
Basil, The Morals, p. 204, vol 9 TFOTC What is the mark of a faithful soul? To be in these dispositions of full acceptance on the authority of the words of Scripture, not venturing to reject anything nor making additions. For, if ‘all that is not of faith is sin’ as the Apostle says, and ‘faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,’ everything outside Holy Scripture, not being of faith, is sin.
There is no church of Calvin.. unlike the Pope..he did not think he was the 2nd coming of Christ
This post just shows you are ignorant of "reformed" theology...
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