Okay. Show me the orthodox Christian theologians or others condemning the introduction of veneration of the saints in the Fourth Century.
Hint: There aren’t any, because veneration of the saints was not introduced in the Fourth Century and it wasn’t contrary to the Faith.
YOUR theory is that a majorly heretical, idolatrous practice swept through Christianity in the Fourth Century, and NOBODY NOTICED UNTIL the SIXTEENTH CENTURY.
Ok, let me try this one more time. And please read it this time.
Revelation 2:14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam,
You see there that there was already paganism creepting into the ekklesia. No one knows how that progressed. You're incessant demand to know who spoke up to oppose it is a none issue. The issue is that the apostles didn't teach it. Yet we see it creeping into the assemblies very early. I'm not even sure what you propose to show or prove by claiming no one opposed it.
Prayer to other then the one true God is pagan in origin and Christ and the apostles opposed anything pagan. As I have shown often the Catholic Church has "taken them into their service".
Was not introduced from (generally) in the 4th century you say?
Au contraire, me ah-mee-go (and 'bonus notches' too, while we're at it), I had intended to address that contention previously, yet did not then, but have returned to show some evidence for how, as CB quoted from the article;
From NPNF2-07. Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen;
9. Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition2490. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls2491, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth.
So far, so good, eh? It would seem like "lookee there", Cyril is establishing that prayer and intercession on the part of those who have fallen asleep aspect was among the prayers of the Church, at least in the 4th century.
So -- why not assume it was always there, and that particular aspect --- which as I took pains to attempt to precisely isolate in previous note to you on this thread (#203), was there all along?
In the attempt to isolate (conceptually) just what the change was; which there is evidence of having occurred, I posed to you the following (as-yet unanswered) question;
Can you show that in the first generations of Christians (what would that be -- 120 to 150 years perhaps, for more than a few "generations"?) that it was common to pray TO saints, in seeking those 'saints' own direct intercession (in the affairs of men) rather than the prayer and veneration be more about them, like as in loving remembrance & gratitude directed towards God for those souls for having been leading personages of the Church --- in those earliest generations after the Apostles?
The answer to that, my FRiend, is not blowing in the wind, but instead is in the footnotes.
Let's have a look at one of those...
2490 In the Liturgies of St. James and St.
Mark, and in the Clementine, there are
similar commemorations of departed
saints, especially “patriarchs, prophets,
apostles, martyrs,” but nothing
corresponding to the words,“that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition.”
See Index, Prayer and Intercession.
Can you see there how; not that it was remembrance and "veneration" itself which was necessarily introduced in the 4th century, but we do find clear enough evidence that praying to them for their own direct intercession was something of a development, at the precise juncture which I just (quite literally) underlined...
As for Church prayers previously having been more limited to being about departed saints, and this in remembrance of them, rather than towards them, as in seeking their own divine or semi-divine "heavenly" and direct & personal intersession, there is no contest.
The next footnote
2491I would be willing to further discuss, yet there too I perceive something of a shifted sense between the compared liturgies, for in Chysostom's (if one could find one of those in unadulterated form -- good luck with that) there is logical possibility that those whom would be seen to profit, or else gain from prayers concerning the departed, would be those whom are doing the praying, instead of those being prayed towards God concerning.
If those prayers having come from genuine Apostolic source, if such could be better identified, then evidence for that attitude should be honestly searched for, by any and all those concerned with establishing one way or another, which way it more originally went.
Why would God need anyone to pray for the departed?
Are not His saints present with Himself, even as we speak? Does He not have the matters well enough in hand?
If that not be so -- then how would it be that a "saint" could themselves hear us, and also themselves respond to prayers of those yet upon earth, while themselves being able to in some fashion "gain" from the prayers of those now living upon the earth?
Is His grace, and His blood, somehow not sufficient for those whom have passed on, and requires a booster-shot of intercessory prayer from us -- for them, even the departed whom are perceived to be truly "saints"?
If those whom are departed are in need of our own prayers --- then where are they?
What now? Will notions of a Purgatory© be invoked, that half-way house to the stars, where some are stopped short of the eventual destination and require a pushing from below as it were (prayers of those still upon the earth) to get 'em over the big 'ol hump, above the sky?
You tell me.
But before doing so...know this.
I am tempted to go back through the comments and make a collage of the various posing and posturings which you have shifted from, to then assume and argue various ways --- including -- seeming to have there at the end having chiefly staked or anchored your own position as towards prayers to departed saints alleged to have been being actually sourced from the Apostles themselves (rather than having been a later development, though one still in early centuries -- like say ---- near to the 4th century? that's 300 years, man, a lot can happen to people's ways of thinking in that much time) despite the lack of positive evidence, yourself depending then upon lack of negative evidence.
That lack of negative evidence can be patently illogical (from the moment's inception) if all there is elsewhere in positive support indeed comes from later centuries (like say -- the 4th century, and onwards from there?) for that was the very argument which was presented in this thread --- which as far as I can determine, no one has yet defeated.
Which leaves things to be, so far, not exactly
Christians 0
but more as
John Calvin 1
Roman Catholics -1