How Christians Will Know They Can Join Hands With Rome

The Cripplegate, New Generation of Non-Conformists ^ | October 29, 2014 | Eric Davis, Pastor since 2008 of Cornerstone Church, Jackson Hole, WY

[RnMomof7]

With Reformation Day coming up, this is a good time to recall why the Reformers departed from Roman Catholicism. In our day especially, it seems that many Christians have history-amnesia when it comes to the importance of what God did through the Reformers. During the Reformation, great confusion existed regarding what was, and was not, the true church of Christ. Rome had asserted itself as the true church for centuries, and continues to do so today. However, as the Reformers recognized then, Christians must follow in step today by recalling that joining hands with Rome is a departure from Christ.

To be clear, this is not to say that everyone who sits in a Roman Catholic church is not a Christian. What it is saying is that several changes must occur before Roman Catholicism, by the book, can be considered biblical Christianity. And the men and women of the Reformation understood this, hence their necessary break with Rome. In their case, and ours, joining Christ necessitates breaking with Rome and coming under Christ means coming out from under Rome.

Christians will know that it is time to join hands with Rome when it does the following:

1. Renounce the Papacy.

[metmom]

Not according to Scripture.

[Secret Agent Man]

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think fundamental points of faith should be ignored between people for the sake of false unity. I belong to a specific denomination on purpose.

I do not subscribe to synchonism or unionism.

I am merely pointing out that these particular postings here devolve into pissing contests and do little to further real dialogue, as it’s the same old folks just tearing into each other again and again for no good reason other than to stir up divisiveness for its own sake.

[metmom]

Liberal, historic mainline Protestant denominations have all but completely abandoned Scripture.

They can hardly be considered churches any more when they don’t teach the truth found in Scripture.

As far as those examples, they are no more major than the ones that exist between the EO and RCC.

[bonfire]

Amen!

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***Saturday originally never had anything to do with sacrifice, it was a day of rest.***

WRONG! Sacrifices were offered every day, including the Sabbath!

NUMBERS 28:

9 And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink offering thereof:

10 This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

Matthew 12:

5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple PROFANE THE SABBATH, and are blameless?

6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

[Petrosius]

I will grant your reply about the Liberal Mainline Protestants but the question of the need for Baptism or the dispute between Arminianism and Calvinism is hardly of little import.

[editor-surveyor]

I understand what you’re saying, but when we see something false posted, it is incumbent upon us to get the reality out there for those that do not post.

Way back when we had our personal email posted at the bottom of the post, I used to get quite a number of replies by that venue, asking for more.
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[RetiredTexasVet]

Just think of the multitude of Hail Marys that could be levied upon you for not recycling. “Forgive me father, for I have not recycled” .... “That will be 400,000 Hail Marys and a $25,000 fine payable as you leave .... and go my son and sin no more but recycle”.

[metmom]

No, but is is still not any less of a difference than between Rome and the EO.

However, most other denominations who do have disagreements, do not disagree on anything that is critical to salvation.

The fact that there are different denominations does NOT by default mean or even need to imply, major differences in doctrine or beliefs, and that they think they are right and everyone else is wrong and not saved.

Many of the differences can be stuff like church governing board preferences, or differences in focus on mission.

To try to portray the fact that there are numerous denominations as evidence that there are either that many differences of interpretation of Scripture is disingenuous. That's simply not the case.

Here are links to several denomination's statements of faith.

I would defy anyone to find anything significant in there statements of faith that would be considered important enough to affect one's salvation.

Paul even allowed for areas of debate; disputable matters as he referred to them as in Romans 14.

Lockstep adherence to ONE denominational creed is not required or demanded by God.

And even if one did verbally, intellectually agree with that, is does not ensure the salvation of that person.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “ for no good reason other than to stir up divisiveness for its own sake.” <<

.
Yeshua loved to divide the truth from the babble:

Matthew 10:

[34] Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
[35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
[36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
[37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
[38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

[editor-surveyor]

>> “People left Christ’s Church, unfortunately” <<

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Yes, that was when the Roman Catholic cult was born.

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[Secret Agent Man]

He also said things about people who are present among the bretheren just to stir up divisiveness.

[tjd1454]

Yeshua loved to divide the truth from the babble

And He will judge the nations - not you or I

[Petrosius]

The fact that there are different denominations does NOT by default mean or even need to imply, major differences in doctrine or beliefs, and that they think they are right and everyone else is wrong and not saved.

Yes, the 30,000+ denominations does overstate the doctrinal differences between Protestants but to insist that there is essential unity also overstates the reality. Doctrinally Protestants (excluding the Liberals who can hardly even be considered Christian anymore much less Protestant) are divided into some major theological groupings. I would list Lutheran, Calvinist and Arminianism as a major divide among Protestants.

But we should not simply dismiss the multi-fractional nature of Protestants. This division, even if it does not represent major theological differences, is contrary to Jesus' will that we be one. The fact that Protestants would divide the unity of the church over minor points is also a scandal against the faith and charity. The truth is that your congregation, whatever it is, has separated itself from its fellow Christians and will not allow those who disagree to preach.

Nor should we ignore the fact that half of all who claim to be Protestants, basing their faith on Scripture alone, have fallen into the error of Liberalism. This has happened precisely because Protestantism posits sola scriptura. There is no mechanism within Protestantism to correct error. Everyone become infallible in his own judgment of Scripture. If someone were to be corrected the retort is always "says who?" This is clearly contrary to the operation of the church found in the New Testament.

[Kandy Atz]

I think its quite telling that NOT ONE scripture you cited comes from Paul’s Epistles, specifically Romans through Thessalonians, the letters written TO, FOR, and ABOUT, the Body of Christ.

[af_vet_1981]

Messiah said there would be false prophets in sheep's clothing that inside would be ravening wolves. He said that they could be recognized by their fruit because corrupt trees bring forth evil fruit.

Anti-Semitism: Martin Luther - "The Jews & Their Lies" (1543)

First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly ­ and I myself was unaware of it ­ will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them. (remainder omitted)

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17 [:10 ff.]) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16 {:18], "You are Peter," etc, inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe­conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let they stay at home. (...remainder omitted).

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us all they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause.

Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants.

* * *

But what will happen even if we do burn down the Jews' synagogues and forbid them publicly to praise God, to pray, to teach, to utter God's name? They will still keep doing it in secret. If we know that they are doing this in secret, it is the same as if they were doing it publicly. for our knowledge of their secret doings and our toleration of them implies that they are not secret after all and thus our conscience is encumbered with it before God.

* * *

Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is:

First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss in sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire. That would demonstrate to God our serious resolve and be evidence to all the world that it was in ignorance that we tolerated such houses, in which the Jews have reviled God, our dear Creator and Father, and his Son most shamefully up till now but that we have now given them their due reward.

* * *

I wish and I ask that our rulers who have Jewish subjects exercise a sharp mercy toward these wretched people, as suggested above, to see whether this might not help (though it is doubtful). They must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in, proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them, as Moses did in the wilderness, slaying three thousand lest the whole people perish. They surely do not know what they are doing; moreover, as people possessed, they do not wish to know it, hear it, or learn it. There it would be wrong to be merciful and confirm them in their conduct. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs, so that we do not become partakers of their abominable blasphemy and all their other vices and thus merit God's wrath and be damned with them. I have done my duty. Now let everyone see to his. I am exonerated. "

[aMorePerfectUnion]

All Christian rites hold to the core beliefs. Once they deny them, churches do not associate with them they are cut off like cancer.

[Petrosius]

I think its quite telling that NOT ONE scripture you cited comes from Paul’s Epistles, specifically Romans through Thessalonians, the letters written TO, FOR, and ABOUT, the Body of Christ.

What, the words of our Lord are not good enough for you unless they are backed up by Paul? But if you do want Paul, how about this one:

For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you. (Titus 1:5)

Do you follow the presbyters that have been appointed (appointed, not selected by the congregation) in every town? Does your church even have presbyters that have been appointed since the days of the Apostles?

[Salvation]

Christ’s words trump Paul’s words in my book.

Sorry you don’t seem to believe in Christ’s words — right?

[Petrosius]

All Christian rites hold to the core beliefs. Once they deny them, churches do not associate with them they are cut off like cancer.

But who has the authority to declare what are the core beliefs? Furthermore, since it is claimed that Protestants, despite the large number of denominations, are actually united in core beliefs, what is the justification from cutting off and separating from other Christians over minor issues?