Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?

self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

[ealgeone]

The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.

[af_vet_1981]

Dear Mr. Fantasy play us a tune
Something to make us all happy
Do anything, take us out of this gloom
Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy
You are the one who can make us all laugh
But doing that you break out in tears
Please don't be sad if it was a straight mind you had
We wouldn't have known you all these years...

Dear mr. Fantasy, Steve Winwood and Traffic, Santa Monica, 1972

Years later with Jerry in 1994

And a reunion with Eric in 2010

[ealgeone]

The Catholic Bible is the same today as it was two thousand years ago.

uhhh...no.

[Mark17]

Then perhaps you could explain why so many Central and South American countries and countries like the Philippines are such third world hell holes, while Protestantism produced counties like the UK, the US and our representative form of government, and other prosperous Northern European countries that led the way in exploration and innovation.

Mom, let me see if I can shed some light on the subject, being as you and I are both ex catholics, and have seen things from both perspectives, and me, living in a third world hell hole, as you so eloquently put it. 😄 Actually, I think of it as a south sea island paradise, but that is for another thread. Anyway, I agree that catholic influence on countries tend to keep them somewhat backward, I think there might be more to it than that. I say that, from having gone all over the world when I was in the USAF, and today also. There are simply cultural differences that keep them back. The catholic influence is certainly not good, and contributes to it, but I am not sure how much that influence has to do with it. I think that American catholics have little in common with catholics in Mexico, central and South America, for instance. In the Philippines, it appears to me, that on the surface, most of them are Catholics, but below the surface, they are animists, very superstitious, and worshipping spirits. I disagree with catholic doctrine, but I don't think American Catholics are like that. Even my beautiful wife, also an ex catholic, to give you an example, was reluctant to learn how to use the microwave oven I bought. I see store clerks keeping track of everything on paper, where you and I would do all that on a computer. I hope that helps. 😄

[Elsie]

But WAIT!

There's more!!

Just LOOK at what EVIL MEN had removed from the KJV BIBLE!!!

---

Let's compare GENESIS

 

 

 

King James Version     Genesis 50:24–26 24And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. 25And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence. 26So Joseph died, being an hundred and ten years old: and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt. . . . .     . . . . . .   . . . . . . .

Joseph Smith Translation   Genesis 50:24–38 24 And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die, and go unto my fathers; and I go down to my grave with joy. The God of my father Jacob be with you, to deliver you out of affliction in the days of your bondage; for the Lord hath visited me, and I have obtained a promise of the Lord, that out of the fruit of my loins, the Lord God will raise up a righteous branch out of my loins; and unto thee, whom my father Jacob hath named Israel, a prophet; (not the Messiah who is called Shilo;) and this prophet shall deliver my people out of Egypt in the days of thy bondage. 25 And it shall come to pass that they shall be scattered again; and a branch shall be broken off, and shall be carried into a far country; nevertheless they shall be remembered in the covenants of the Lord, when the Messiah cometh; for he shall be made manifest unto them in the latter days, in the Spirit of power; and shall bring them out of darkness into light; out of hidden darkness, and out of captivity unto freedom. 26 A seer shall the Lord my God raise up, who shall be a choice seer unto the fruit of my loins. 27 Thus saith the Lord God of my fathers unto me, A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins, his brethren. 28 And he shall bring them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers; and he shall do whatsoever work I shall command him. 29 And I will make him great in mine eyes, for he shall do my work; and he shall be great like unto him whom I have said I would raise up unto you, to deliver my people, O house of Israel, out of the land of Egypt; for a seer will I raise up to deliver my people out of the land of Egypt; and he shall be called Moses. And by this name he shall know that he is of thy house; for he shall be nursed by the king’s daughter, and shall be called her son. 30 And again, a seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins, and unto him will I give power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins; and not to the bringing forth of my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my word, which shall have already gone forth among them in the last days; 31 Wherefore the fruit of thy loins shall write, and the fruit of the loins of Judah shall write; and that which shall be written by the fruit of thy loins, and also that which shall be written by the fruit of the loins of Judah, shall grow together unto the confounding of false doctrines, and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to a knowledge of their fathers in the latter days; and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord. 32 And out of weakness shall he be made strong, in that day when my work shall go forth among all my people, which shall restore them, who are of the house of Israel, in the last days. 33 And that seer will I bless, and they that seek to destroy him shall be confounded; for this promise I give unto you; for I will remember you from generation to generation; and his name shall be called Joseph, and it shall be after the name of his father; and he shall be like unto you; for the thing which the Lord shall bring forth by his hand shall bring my people unto salvation. 34 And the Lord sware unto Joseph that he would preserve his seed forever, saying, I will raise up Moses, and a rod shall be in his hand, and he shall gather together my people, and he shall lead them as a flock, and he shall smite the waters of the Red Sea with his rod. 35 And he shall have judgment, and shall write the word of the Lord. And he shall not speak many words, for I will write unto him my law by the finger of mine own hand. And I will make a spokesman for him, and his name shall be called Aaron. 36 And it shall be done unto thee in the last days also, even as I have sworn. Therefore, Joseph said unto his brethren, God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land, unto the land which he sware unto Abraham, and unto Isaac, and to Jacob. 37 And Joseph confirmed many other things unto his brethren, and took an oath of the children of Israel, saying unto them, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence. 38 So Joseph died when he was an hundred and ten years old; and they embalmed him, and they put him in a coffin in Egypt; and he was kept from burial by the children of Israel, that he might be carried up and laid in the sepulchre with his father. And thus they remembered the oath which they sware unto him.

[FourtySeven]

I had said that Mary was mother of Jesus's earthly Incarnation. I used the word "only" also, to indicate she was not his own "heavenly" mother so to speak.

Perhaps you are confusing my statement with those persons who attempt to argue that Mary was mother only of His physical body?

Alright yes you are right that was my error.

I have no disagreement with that, nor did I express the slightest thing which could lead anyone to logically assume that I had...

Either you truly do not understand what I was saying, or else obviously you are trying to put words into my mouth.

Alright, you are right here too, I do not understand what you were saying previously. It was a late night for me yesterday and I still remain tired.

The last word remains yours. I do not concede anything further, as my silence will now indicate, nor do I wish to debate you further. So the last word of all things left unresponded by me remains yours.

[Elsie]

 In the Philippines, it appears to me, that on the surface, most of them are Catholics, but below the surface, they are animists, very superstitious, and worshipping spirits.

 

 

HMMMmmm...   these would mesh quite well with Catholicism.

 

Ritualistic food, beads and repeated prayers...

 

Calling out to dead folks for help...

[Elsie]

Then perhaps you could explain why so many Central and South American countries and countries like the Philippines are such third world hell holes, while Protestantism produced counties like the UK, the US and our representative form of government, and other prosperous Northern European countries that led the way in exploration and innovation.

You’ll find some disagreement here -—> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3237145/replies?c=5479

[Elsie]

Whoa!

Sorry ‘bout the LARGE text!

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/3244186/posts

[metmom]

I think that American catholics have little in common with catholics in Mexico, central and South America, for instance.

And I would submit that it is the strong Protestant influence that prevented that.

Because Catholicism so easily goes into syncretism in areas where there is voo doo and superstition, etc, it would be here as well.

Matter of fact, the most superstitious people I knew were Catholics.

Look even at countries like Italy and Spain.

[CynicalBear]

Abracadabra

[CynicalBear]

>>that we'd be filled spiritually through the consumption of His Body and Blood<<

Fail

"he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst."

Catholics have to do it over and over. Your literal interpretation of that passage in John 6 doesn't hold true. Did Jesus switch from literal to figuratively and back again or something?

[CynicalBear]

>>So your theory is that Jesus changed his mind in the middle of the chapter?<<

No, that's the Catholic position. You just got done telling me that "we'd be filled spiritually through the consumption of His Body and Blood". So Catholics go from interpreting from the literal flesh to spiritual filling. But still have to do it over and over again ignoring Jesus words that you would never hunger or thirst again.

I suppose you don't take the Old Testament literally when it says they "ate the scroll" either right?

[Mark17]

aMatter of fact, the most superstitious people I knew were Catholics

That is certainly true here in the Philippines. Though they are some of the most hospitable people in the world, they are also some of the most superstitious. What I think is strange, is that the Iglesia Ni Cristo and the catholics hate each other, but their doctrines are virtually identical and both are very superstitious. I have asked both sides why the animosity, but no one could tell me why. It is just the way it is. One of the strangest superstitions they told me about, was to watch out or I would get pinched by a dwarf. I thought it was ridiculous, until I found out for sure what it was, but I figured it out in about 1/2 a second. It seemed to only happen in rural and remote areas, which is what I thought, for what I observed.

I do, however, get lots of chances to witness to catholics here. It is a never ending battle 😄

[CynicalBear]

>>The Eucharist is the food that feeds my spirit; “flesh profiteth nothing”.<<

God's word is what feeds my spirit.

Jeremiah 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

John 17:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

[CynicalBear]

>>Matter of fact, the most superstitious people I knew were Catholics.<<

Is it any wonder? They use holy water to scare away evil spirits and many other rituals just as the pagans do.

[Mrs. Don-o]

They say the "unchangeable Word of God" re the OT prohibition of relations between men or between women, has the same status as the "unchangeable Word of God" re the OT prohibition of fabrics mixing different kinds of fibers and the OT law that witchcraft was punishable by death (Exodus 22:18, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.")--- cultic and cultural rules considered null in the NT.

They would say further that the words which people mistakenly interpret as "homosexual" in the NT, "malakoi" and "arsnokoitai", in fact referred not to homosexuals in general, nor to gay married people (which did not exist at that time), but to pederasts, rent-boys and cult prostitutes. Link Here

Thus they would argue that it is we (you and I) who are holding to age-old human bigotry, traditions and customs and not the unchangeable word of God from the unchangeable God. They would urge us to stop basing our interpretations on mere human biases and rules, and instead search deeper in to the language of Scripture itself to determine whether Scripture condemns gay marriage.

In other words, they would say that it is the "traditional marriage" people who ware too dependent on "tradition." And as for themselves? Ah! They diligently search the Word of God alone to see that for ALL married couples (including themselves), may do what comes naturally (to them) by mutual consent in their marriage bed - which is "honorable in ALL and UNDEFILED" - and it is between themselves and God.

I know how I would refute this. But I'm interested in how you would. Your thoughts?

[Mrs. Don-o]

I do think we should not impute malice, laziness or dishonesty to each other in the matter of quotes. (Not that malice, laziness and dishonesty don't exist, but that should not be our assumption. It's something to examine our own consciences about. )

All quotes are (in a sense) out of context and cherrypicked, simply since we all do select them on the basis of their support for our argument. A quote that seems ambiguous or which seems to counteract our claim, we are motivated to bolster with context so it shows what we think is "only the Gospel Truth", or we use context to prove it doesn't mean what people thought it meant.

It's truly difficult, sometimes, to get to the truth, even for the honest and learned, and of course if somebody IS dishonest, it throws a monkey-wrench into the works.

From my point of view, for instance, it always seems like the Protestant brethren's interpretations of Scriptures related to the Church, the Eucharist, and Mary, aim not to explain them, but to explain them away. But I reckon these same brethren would be sincerely astonished by this POV, and would give back a big tu quoque! when it comes to oh-so-clear Scriptures about the all-sufficiency of Faith all by itself --- so sadly neglected by the papists!!

And of sermonette.

:o)

Free, and worth every penny!

[Mrs. Don-o]

Rather, I would say that being incorporated into Christ is exactly what is meant by a saving Faith.

[Mrs. Don-o]

>>YOU ARE RIGHT, He used the Catholic Church as His means of doing all that....<< "Well that puts the Catholic Church right in there with the likes of Balaam's donkey."

YES!! Agreement at last. Happy Dance!

[annalex]

What changed?