Is Prayer/Veneration/Worship to Mary Biblical?

self | 12-14-14 | ealgeone

[ealgeone]

The reason for this article is to determine if the worship/veneration given to Mary by the catholic church is justified from a Biblical perspective. This will be evaluated using the Biblical standard and not man’s standard.

[Mark17]

Lots of touchy issues here. How to deal with them without gratuitously clunking around in army boots.

I was Air Force 😄

[af_vet_1981]

Thanks for the research. I'm going to have to take time to look into that more carefully. On another topic: you referred to yourself once as a "Jewish Apostle" (I think.) Are you a Catholic? A Hebrew Catholic? Or something else? How does that work? (Obviously I'm confused.)

I would never refer to myself as a Jewish Apostle. Any reference U made like that would have been a reference to the original Twelve Jewish Apostles. Yes. Yes. Work is taxing but the retirement is priceless.

You say it's a living, we all gotta eat
but you're here alone there's no one to compete
If mercy's in business I wish it for you
More than just ashes when your dreams come

[Syncro]

To Syncro

Oh my gosh! Talk about unarmed...LOL!

I never challenge, intellectually, anyone who is my superior....she did. LOL

Of course she did, any Christian can challenge any posters that is your superior.

Christians don't deal with putting themselves above or below other Christians, but do follow this scripture:

Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves---Philippians 2:3

Look up sword of the spirit. Not used much by Catholicism, be careful you don't wound yourself.

PS, it's in the Holy Spirit's translation of the Bible.

Oh my gosh! Talk about unarmed...LOL!

I never challenge, intellectually, anyone who is my superior....she did. LOL

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thanks, that was what I was looking for: specific answers.

We are probably stumbling over different definitions. We wouldn't define a person in hospital ministry as being a pastor; neither could a non-ordained person administer most of the sacraments (except a lay person, properly commissioned, could bring the Holy Eucharist to a sick person.) But that does not require a pastor.

As for the "missionary couple sharing their experience," that would not be "preaching" as we understand it, i.e. expounding the Gospel from the pulpit during Mass. That is to say, Liturgical proclamation, which is done only by an ordained man: deacon, priest,or bishop.

The "missionary couple" might rather talk to a special meeting in the school gym, or to the Youth group or the Council of Catholic Women or something.

Outside of Liturgy, as to general "preaching," --- sometimes you can't shut me up! Ask my husband! My very patient husband!! :o)

[metmom]

It seems (to unworthy me) that what he's hoping for from you is not silence, but an explanation.

Past history does not bear that out.

[Mrs. Don-o]

The question at hand, was: "Who are the dead in Christ?" My answer was:

ME "I think only God can answer that question in any comprehensive way."...
YOU: " Then just WHY was it written into the Scriptures that you Catholics gave us?"

I'm not sure what you mean. You have a list?

Anyway, as a Catholic, let me take this opportunity to say I'm real glad we gave you the Bible.

:o)

:o)

:o)

YOU'RE WELCOME!

Stop by sometime and I'll give you the seven other books you dropped in the driveway!

[Mrs. Don-o]

So true!!!

[Mrs. Don-o]

"How DARE you try to use Scripture as a Standard for the TRUE church!"

??

[Mark17]

Good point.

God gave women that honor.

I don't know why that happened the way it did. Maybe the men were just too scared of the rulers to do it themselves. What is your opinion about why?

[Mrs. Don-o]

This is fine. There are plenty of prophetesses. God has never ceased to send prophetesses. They do not, however, preach from the pulpit during Liturgy.

Sometimes they command popes. (E.g. my fave, S. Catherine of Siena.)

[Mrs. Don-o]

What part of this sounds un-Catholic-like?

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thanks for a good, coherent explanation. Something to think about.

"...it refers to Him having conversations with whoever He wants based on His divine will and power."

Yes. Also, I can have conversations with whoever He wants me to, "based on His divine will and power."

Generally I don't get any audible replies. Never, actually, in my experience. Bu some people do. By His divine will and power.

This is because the saints gone before us, together with me, and you, are members of the Body of Christ. And...

1 Corinthians 12:20-21
But now indeed there are many members, yet one body.
And the eye cannot say to the hand,
"I have no need of you";
nor again the head to the feet,
"I have no need of you."

[Mrs. Don-o]

I am sorry. I misunderstood you.

The phrase was here: "...and pointedly said if any were contentious, we (Jewish Apostles) had no such custom..."

The whole section was to be understood as having been said by Paul. I see that now. There weren't any quotation marks, and I read it way too quickly and carelessly.

Thanks for your good thoughts!

[Mrs. Don-o]

We shall see. I’m hoping for better.

[af_vet_1981]

Ah, so the admonition that women remain silent and not teach men is for non-Catholic women only it seems.

I thought that I had already explained this before but apparently you did not.
1. The Apostle to the Gentiles, Paul, was very clear and firm. He left written evidence that women were to keep silence in the churches. They were commanded to be under obedience as also said the law. It was a shame for women to speak in the church. And for those Corinthians that even thought to question this apostolic ruling Paul challenged them asking if the word of God came out from them (No, the word came from Israel), and if it only came to them (No, Messiah sent the Apostles to the corners of the known world). He further said if anyone thinks himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, he must admit that the things Paul is teaching about behavior in the churches, including that of women, are the commandments of the Lord.
2. Paul leaves another piece of scriptural evidence in his first letter to Timothy. Women must adorn themselves with good works and modest apparel, learning in subjection to the appropriate authority, not teaching nor usurping authority over the man. He explains the role rationale in terms of Adam and Eve.
3. Paul taught the same doctrine in all the churches of the saints. The commandments of The Lord were the same in all the churches. There is one holy catholic apostolic Church. If you hold the Sola Scriptura doctrine I expect you to obey Paul's instructions, which clearly exclude women trying to teach believing men doctrine.
4. You will say what of Hannah ? Jewish widow, married to a priest or Levite and so had a right to live in a designated area of the Temple. It never gave her carte Blanche to violate the law (which she did not do).
5. You will bring up Priscilla. Jewish, married to Aquila, a Jew; both probably original disciples of a Messiah. Her conversations with Apollos were with her husband and private, not in public. That is how reverent Jewish women live even today.
6. Now you say I don't require this same standard of Catholic women. They don't hold the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. They believe in apostolic succession such that they are in subjection to the Church which sets the rules; no women priests, regular religious teachers in obedience to a bishop, etc. no lone rangers, everything in order, and supported by the authority of the holy catholic apostolic Church. I submit myself to the authority of the holy catholic apostolic Church, else I would be a rebel and Lone Ranger. I accept traditions even though my instincts might take me elsewhere. I bought a clue; the Father did not do what I would have expected when Messiah ascended to heaven. He is right, always right.
7. If you say I misinterpret the texts and women are allowed to teach doctrine to men, prophesy, etc. I say show me your authority or tradition. that approves, licenses, or sponsors a woman teaching, prophesying, or preaching like that. No lone rangerettes. Either Sola Scriptura and Paul's express delivery of the Lord's commandments and/or Paul's apostolic teaching, or a denomination, sect, or faith group tradition upon which rests your authority to attempt to teach me doctrine.
8. Or better yet, come home to the Catholic Church where you will always be welcome no matter how far you've travelled.

[boatbums]

You are correct and you will find even on these RF threads that pops up. A good example would be when someone agrees that we are "saved by grace and not by our works", but then they turn around and say we are saved by faith and our works. They acknowledge it is because of God's grace we are saved but we must not only believe in Christ by faith, we MUST do good works in order to keep our salvation. Grace, they state, is the gift of God, but our works are what we do to "cooperate" with that grace and maybe make it to heaven if we don't lose it by sinning.

[boatbums]

What's that saying..."call me anything but late for supper"?☺♥

[Mark17]

Grace, they state, is the gift of God, but our works are what we do to "cooperate" with that grace and maybe make it to heaven if we don't lose it by sinning.

Yes, it is cult-speak. They act like they agree with you, just to rope you in, when in fact, they don't agree with you at all. It's a real catch 22. A few weeks ago, I was sitting outside in the 90 degree heat, when three Jehovah's Witnesses showed up. I looked at them and said let me guess, Kingdom Hall. I was right of course and said if they wanted to discuss the word of God, I would set the ground rules, since it was my house. First, I said I would not accept the New World Translation and since I do not speak their language, they would have to speak English as best they could. I also said I would define every term I used, and they would have to do the same. I tied them in knots and they left shaking their heads and never came back. And BTW, you are right. At dinner time, don't get between me and the food. It could be hazardous to your health (joke) 😄

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thank you for these thoughts on women as preachers, teachers and leaders.

The Vatican sponsored a colloquium a couple of months back focused on Male and Female as Complementary (the short name was The Humanum Coinference." (LINK) It was not just for Catholics, they had Protestant, Evangelical, Orthodox, Jewish, -- all kinds of thinkers and speakers who upheld the Man+Woman Marriage model as absolutely essential.

I was intrigued because people do refer to a complementarity of men and women, but often have a hard time defining just what it consists of.

I admit I haven't plugged into this conference the way I should have. There were (are?) videos and papers and books available, and I've just barely skimmed it.

The whole "controlled demolition of sex and gender" thing that's going down right now, is firmly pushing the ideology that there's no essential difference between men and women "except the plumbing" (how I hate that phrase!!

A Norwegian interviewer named Harald Eia did a fascinating ~30-min. video exploring what he calls the "Gender Equality paradox" (LINK, click on the video) which is that in circumstances (like Norway) where women and men have the greatest freedom to choose professions they actually prefer, women overwhelmingly go toward people-to-people caring professions like childcare, nursing and teaching, and men go for math-and- engineering-heavy professions.

The actual research (meaning, looking at stuff that actually happens) suggests that from infancy, girl babies are more responsive to persons (or human-like figures with faces and voices) as opposed to objects, while boys are more evenly responsive to both persons and objects, with maybe a little lean toward the latter.

That seems to be it, mostly.

Interesting. Your thoughts?

[CynicalBear]

>>And one could ask, Did Abraham Isaac, and Jacob, ever say they "relied on Christ alone"?<<

One could but if the answer to that is in question more space is needed then will be taken here or by this poster.

>>So this "faith" --- is it "faith alone"?<<

Yes, it is the faith alone that saves. The rest is the result, evidence, and consequence of that faith. Saving faith will naturally produce the proof and evidence of that faith.

>>He has never ceased to provide these earthly leaders, teaches and shepherds for us in every age:<<

Matthew 28:20 teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Not some stand in or so called vicar.

Acts 13:1 Now there were in the church ekklesia that was at Antioch

Not Rome or some other centralized rulership.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath appointed some in the church ekklesia (at Corinth), first as apostles, secondarily as prophets, thirdly as teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

Not first a pope, then cardinals, then bishops, then priests. Next to last was administrators. Those who administer the affairs of the local group. Not once is a central organized dictatorship or controlling group set over all of the local assemblies.

>>However, I'd asked what "members of One Body" as in "Body of Christ" means to you.<<

Those called out by God, the ekklesia, are all part of the body of Christ. The local ekklesia consists of those that belong to the universal body of believers who because of geographical location meet as a group. In each of those groups will be those who have been called to different types of service to the group. Each local group will assist and support one another and as they are able will also give assistance to other groups of believers who may need assistance or aid.