Posted on 12/10/2014 6:32:20 AM PST by marshmallow
"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.
On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).
On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.
It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."
Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."
If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?
"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."
To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
I mention the math, because it is a fact: 9/10 of those who have accepted Christ as their Savior did so in their youth.
But God, through the Holy Spirit, can ALWAYS reach those whom He chose at any age.
When Christ appointed Peter the rock on which He would build His church, the Catholic church was established.Although it may not have been referred to as Catholic from that moment, it is nevertheless the same group of people who wrote and circulated the books who were very soon referred to as Catholic. There was no one in between....they, from Christ/Peter are the Catholic church.
yeah, right.....but Moses and Elias are???
“Catholic Church = “We need not shrink from admitting that candles, like incense and lustral water, were commonly employed in pagan worship and the rites paid to the dead. But the Church from a very early period took them into her service,”
Things - such as candles, incense, water - are not paganism. They are THINGS. OBJECTS. In themselves they have no religious significance. Also, incense worship is straight out of the Bible: Exodus 25:1, 2, 6; 35:4, 5, 8, 27-29; Hebrews 9:34), Revelation 8:4.
“Catholic Church = “When we give or receive Christmas gifts; or hang green wreaths in our homes and churches, how many of us know that we are probably observing pagan customs”
Just like pants - no religious significance for us even though only pagans wore them. The Wise Men brought gifts for the Jesus. Wreathes have no religious significance in themselves for us. It’s just that simple.
Now, you can keep doing this - what seems to amount to bait and switch saying “candles” are the same thing as “paganism” but that’s patently ridiculous as any Christian who has ever lit a candle on a dinner table, or at any other time at home, knows, but what is the point of you doing that when it has already failed?
I am reading Marks of a True Conversion right now by George Whitefield
"Verily, I say unto you, except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."Matthew 18:3
And as a little child gives up its hand to be guided by a parent or a nurse, so those who are truly converted, and are real Christians, will give up the heart, their understandings, their wills, their affections, to be guided by the word, providence, and the Spirit of the Lord. Hence it is, that the Apostle, speaking of the sons of God, says, "As many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are (and to be sure he means they only are) the sons of God."
I was surprised by the vehemence of your comments against the Catholics. You are not by chance a baptized Catholic are you ?
I gladly go weekly to a nondenominational evangelical assembly of believers, with a good pastor.
Is it like Calvary Chapel ? Is it charismatic ? I take it that you have considered the claims of Fundamental Baptists and found them wanting, as also the claims of the Reformed Theology assemblies and Pentecostals.
And while they are not as informed about Rome as i am,
I take it the pastor and assembly are not antiCatholic. Are they Evangelical but eschew the label Fundamentalist ?
And i sanctify the Lord's day, not even shopping or doing secular work.
Do you know why you do this on the first day of the week and not the seventh day of the week ?
“yeah, right.....but Moses and Elias are???”
There you go again asking rational questions! :)
I have been a Catholic for 76 years and I've never been told otherwise.....All the Catholics that I know accept Christ as their savior..Catholics were the only CHRISTians for 1,600 years. What would be the point of being a Christian if one didn't believe that Christ was their savior?????
What? Did you not say it was a South Park video (when it wasn’t)?"“Debate via youtube?...Without backup for your claims, you post a south park video??”[No, of course I didn't.]
In post 1561 you wrote, “Debate via youtube?...Without backup for your claims, you post a south park video??” So you say it was a youtube video and you said it was a South Park video. Are you now denying that you wrote that? Seriously?
See the question marks? It was a QUESTION, not a claim. Noticing your apparent propensity for obtuse absurdity, I just took a guess and asked you a question.
Go back and look at #1561. I don’t see how you can deny that you wrote, “Debate via youtube?...Without backup for your claims, you post a south park video??”See how I asked you a question, no making a claim there. I don't deny what I wrote, note your seemingly lack of reading comprehension.
“Plus you are right even when you are wrong. Got it.”As in this case. You are wrong.No, when I’m wrong I’m wrong
Again, post # 1561: “Debate via youtube?...Without backup for your claims, you post a south park video??”
Redundant, already shown to be "misunderstood." Giving you the benefit of the doubt...
“I did NOT claim what the video was about, and I did not claim to have watched it.”Redundant X 2, explained already.Again, post #1561: “Debate via youtube?...Without backup for your claims, you post a south park video??”
Oh, so you’re saying you posted something that was worded in such a way that someone would believe its literal meaning when that was actually false?Nope. It wasn't false, it was a question as any rational intelligent individual could see quite easily. I think the clue was the question mark at the end.
So it's literal meaning is that it was a question.
There’s nothing wrong with my reading comprehension. I took you at your word and I bet many here - even the anti-Catholics - would agree. You wrote, “Debate via youtube?...Without backup for your claims, you post a south park video??”Well let's see if anyone else doesn't know what a question mark means.
From seeing the nature of your posts, it was simple to guess that you were attempting to debate with a South Park video.
Bad guess, and I still did not watch the link you provided to apparently a Tom Hanks clip.
Go ahead and use Newman's take on False Witness, I prefer the Biblical take.
From Exodus:P.S. Five times you post the same quote from me, and 5 times I patiently showed you how to properly understand it.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
You shall not raise a false report: put not your hand with the wicked to be an unrighteous witness.
And Proverbs 19:9
A false witness shall not be unpunished , and he that speaketh lies shall perish.
And I wish to thank you for referencing the post # for documentation. That was very gracious of you and I thank you.
It vindicates this poster.
if you ignore Christ and the church that He founded....how do you know that the "light" that tells you that it is leading you out of darkness isn't the "Angel of light" I believe that was Lucifer....and if you are wandering further and further from Catholicism it can't be good....
BEING Catholic does NOT mean one is born again. Where did Christ say “ye must be a Catholic to enter the kingdom of God”?
Catholic Church = “We need not shrink from admitting that candles, like incense and lustral water, were commonly employed in pagan worship and the rites paid to the dead. But the Church from a very early period took them into her service,
Catholic Church = “When we give or receive Christmas gifts; or hang green wreaths in our homes and churches, how many of us know that we are probably observing pagan customs"
You were wrong
LOL naw...
Just inspired more consulted mental gymnastics
That was convoluted and unclear. I am not sure who made the reference to “south park. “ Nonetheless, it seems to me that it was easily misconstrued as I could not tell whether the two question marks where to express surprise, imply audacity, or impeach the witness for the reference, and not an actual question per se.
Catholic ascriptions to Mary:
We must never adore her; that is for God alone. But otherwise we cannot honor her to excess, because it is not possible to overestimate the privileges God gave her in making her His own Mother. “What the church teaches,” by Monsignor J.D. Conway/ Imprimatur of Ralph L. Hayes,, New York; Harper and Brothers; 1962 (He also states, “It seems manifest that Christians simply adapted the art of pagan Rome to their religious needs:” p. 218)
Pope Pius XII asserts in an address on the Queenship of Mary, “after your assumption into heaven, he crowned you Queen of the Universe....In your name, resounding harmoniously in heaven, may they recognise that they are all brothers. Receive, O most sweet mother, our humble supplication above all obtained for us, that on that day, happy with you, we may repeat before your throne that hymn which is sung today around your altars. You are all beautiful, O Mary, you are the glory, you are the joy, you are the honour of our people.’ Catholic Culture, Prayer of Pope Pius XII, Composed for the Marian Year, 1954
“The power thus put into her (Mary’s) hands is all but unlimited. How unerringly right, then, are Christian souls when they turn to Mary for help...How rightly, too, has every nation and every liturgy without exception acclaimed her great renown, which has grown greater with the voice of each succeeding century. Among her many other titles we find her hailed as ‘our Lady, our Mediatrix,’ — (St. Tharasius, Orat. in Praesentatione) ‘the Dispenser of all heavenly gifts.’ (On Off. Graec., 8 Dec.).” Pope Leo XIII, in Adiutricem (On the Rosary), Encyclical promulgated on September 5, 1895, #8. http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Leo13/l13adiut.htm
When therefore we read in the writings of Saint Bernard, Saint Bernardine, Saint Bonaventure, and others that all in heaven and on earth, even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin, they mean that the authority which God was pleased to give her is so great that she seems to have the same power as God. Her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands in the sense that he never resists his dear mother’s prayer because it is always humble and conformed to his will.... — St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, #27, 246. http://www.ewtn.com/library/Montfort/TRUEDEVO.HTM
Mary can be declared by the Church to be not only the “helpmate” of that Second Divine Person — Co-Redemptrix in Salvation, Mediatrix in grace — but actually “like unto Him.”...when she acts, it is also He who acts; and that if her intervention be not accepted, neither is His.... Her position as “the first of all creatures, the most acceptable child of God, the nearest and dearest to him,” (Cardinal Newman); As Mother of God, says Lepicier, Mary contracts a certain affinity with the Father; · The pre-eminent resemblance which she bears to the Father, which has fitted her to pour out into the world the everlasting light which issues from that loving Father.... He has no children but by her, and communicates no graces but by her...and through her alone does He dispense His favours and His gifts. A Marian Synthesis; http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/general/msynthesis.htm
Mary is the sealed fountain and the faithful spouse of the Holy Spirit where only he may enter...She is the sanctuary and resting-place of the Blessed Trinity...the holy City of God, the greatness of the power which she wields over one who is God cannot be conceived...her prayers and requests are so powerful with him that he accepts them as commands...because it is always humble and conformed to his will, the dispenser of all he possesses...What immeasurable greatness...Mary has authority over the angels and the blessed in heaven...God gave her the power and the mission of assigning to saints the thrones made vacant by the apostate angels who fell away through pride....all the angels in heaven unceasingly call out to her...They greet her countless times each day with the angelic greeting, “Hail, Mary”, while prostrating themselves before her, begging her as a favour to honour them with one of her requests...The whole world is filled with her glory,... Moreover, we should repeat after the Holy Spirit, “All the glory of the king’s daughter is within”.... Whatever desires the patriarchs may have cherished, whatever entreaties the prophets and saints of the Old Law may have had for 4,000 years to obtain that treasure, it was Mary alone who merited it and found grace before God by the power of her prayers and the perfection of her virtues.” — St. Louis de Montfort, in Treatise on True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin, miscl. http://www.legionofmarytidewater.com/docs/true.doc
According to Eadmer (A.D. 1060–1124), an English monk and student of Anselm, “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary’s name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus...[who] does not at once, answer anyone who invokes him, but only does so after just judgment. But if the name of his mother Mary is invoked, her merits intercede so that he is answered even if the merits of him who invoked her do not deserve it.” Through her “the elements are renewed, the netherworld is healed, the demons are trodden underfoot, men are saved and angels are restored.” — Andrew Taylor, “Three medieval manuscripts and their readers,” University of Pennsylvania press; page 173
In “Glories of Mary” by Liguori, whose writings were declared free from anything meriting censure by Pope Gregory XVI (1839) in the bull of his canonization, he teaches,
“He who is under the protection of Mary will be saved; he who is not will be lost . . . O immaculate Virgin, we are under thy protection, and therefore we have recourse, to thee alone, and we beseech thee to prevent thy beloved Son, who is irritated by our sins, from abandoning us to the power of the devil. - . . Thou (Mary) art my only hope. . . . Lady in heaven, we have but one advocate, and that is thyself, and thou alone art truly loving and solicitous for our salvation ... My Queen and my Advocate with thy Son, whom I dare not approach “ (From Judge Fairly, p. 5).
Richard of St. Laurence encourages sinners to have recourse to this great name, “because it alone will suffice to cure them of all their evils;” and “there is no disorder, however malignant, that does not immediately yield to the power of the name of Mary.” — St. Alphonsus de Liguori http://www.doctorsofthecatholicchurch.com/AL.html
The recourse we have to Mary in prayer follows upon the office she continuously fills by the side of the throne of God as Mediatrix of Divine grace; being by worthiness and by merit most acceptable to Him, and, therefore, surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven. — Iucunda Semper Expectatione, Pope Leo XIII, 1894
But by her compassion for her Divine Son she had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin. It was not only during the Passion that Jesus and Mary suffered for our sins, for all their lives that heartrending vision was before them in every detail, and never for a moment forgotten. — The Reign of Mary, Vol. 40; Issue 48
“We were condemned through the fault of one woman; we are saved through the merits of another woman. Just as Eve was the root of death for everyone, so Mary was the source of life for everyone. — Ten Series of Meditations on the Mystery of the Rosary,” by John Ferraro, Nihil Obstat John C. Hogan, Diocesan Censor; Imprimatur (1) - Richard Cardinal Cushing Daughters of St.Paul, 1964).
“After God, it is impossible to think of anything greater than His Mother.” p. 83^
..to her, Jesus owes His Precious Blood...Next to God, she deserves the highest praise....no creature, can ever be compared to her:”To what shall I compare thee, or to whom shall I liken thee, O daughter of Jerusalem.” (Lam. 2:13) [another verse taken out of context, as it refers to the affliction of Jewish mothers in general due to the judgment upon Jerusalem.] —http://www.salvemariaregina.info/SalveMariaRegina/SMR-098.html
...all graces of the Precious Blood come through Mary. — http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/virgin-eucharist.htm
“O Christian who comest full of faith to receive the Bread of life, eat It worthily, and remember that It was fashioned out of Mary’s pure blood.” Mary can quite rightfully beckon to us and speak to us in the words of the inspired prophet, “Come and eat my bread, drink the wine I have prepared” (Prov. 9:5).
“The union between the Immaculata and the Holy Spirit is so inexpressible, yet so perfect, that the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse. This is why she is the mediatrix of all graces given by the Holy Spirit. And since every grace is a gift of God the Father through the Son and by the Holy Spirit, it follows that there is no grace which Mary cannot dispose of as her own, which is not given to her for this purpose.” — Manteau-Bonamy, Immaculate Conception, 91; F.X. Durrwell, The Holy Spirit of God (Cincinnati: Servant Books, 2006), 183-185.
...”Limitless is the difference between God’s servants and His Mother...Your honor and dignity surpass the whole of creation; your greatness places you above the angels...from her union with Christ she attains a radiant eminence transcending that of any other creature; from her union with Christ she receives the royal right to dispose of the treasures of the Divine Redeemer’s Kingdom;... she intercedes powerfully for us with a mother’s prayers, obtains what she seeks, and cannot be refused....Theologians and preachers...must beware of unfounded opinions and exaggerated expressions which go beyond the truth.” [an in-credible injunction if Scripture is to be held as the Truth, as going beyond the Truth us exactly what Pope Pius XII is doing. But Scripture is not the supreme authority for Rome, but is made into a servant for her purposes, and Truth to Rome can be whatever she autocratically declares.] — Ad Caeli Reginam, Encyclical of Pope Pius XII; http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_11101954_ad-caeli-reginam_en.html
...”she is Mother of her Creator...through Whom the Holy Trinity is sanctified.” “...she mediates between God and men.” “ “Run through all creation in your thought and see if there be one equal or superior to the Holy Virgin, Mother of God.” (Works taken from “Letter to the Rev. E. B. Pusey” contained in Newman’s “Difficulties of Anglicans” Volume II); http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/newman-mary.asp
Yeah, well that describes the government.
There are more Christians than there are Catholics.Catholicism has already separated itself from mainstream Christianity by pushing the false concept that the church of Jesus Christ, made up of all born again believers with Jesus in them and them in Him [look it up it's in the New Testament] is wholly contained within the Catholic Church.Can't separate the two.
Oh except for those that are "incomplete." Believing that takes some dedication to false doctrine with strong blinders to the truth on.
Catholicism is the first Protestant denomination because the protested against the Orthodox about a thousand years ago because the Orthodox preferred Jesus as their leader instead of a pope.
More from the cult of all non Catholics are Protestants. Get exorcized from that cult and follow Jesus!
Christians...sans Catholics if you like...use the Bible to have the Truth of what Jesus taught.
If following Jesus and learning His truths is "incomplete" to you, fine with me...
What a delicious dig!
All born again non Catholic (don't want to speak for Catholics) love Mary and respect her the same as Jesus did.
Of course she is family, just as are all Christains. Including those in the old testament who saw who Christ is/was and followed him centuries before his physical birth as Jesus.
It will be great to embrace Mary when the dead in Christ are raised!
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