Posted on 12/10/2014 6:32:20 AM PST by marshmallow
"Christian unity" is one of those terms that stir up a whole spectrum of—sometimes emotional—opinions.
On the one hand, we know that Jesus prayed to the Father concerning future believers "that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you" (John 17:21a, NIV).
On the other hand, charismatics know it is almost pointless to discuss the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12, 14) with Baptists or most anyone else from a mainline denomination. And Protestants of just about any stripe get riled up when they hear Catholics talking about papal infallibility or their adoration of the Virgin Mary.
It's on this latter point that Rick Warren, senior pastor of Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, and successful author, has waded into a hornet's nest of controversy by telling a Catholic News Service interviewer that Protestants and Catholics "have far more in common than what divides us" and that Catholics do not "worship Mary like she's another god."
Regarding Warren's view that Catholics do not worship Mary, Matt Slick, writing on the website of the Christian Apologetics & Research Ministry, goes into great detail with material from Roman Catholic sources that say Mary is "the all holy one," is to be prayed to, worshipped, that she "brings us the gifts of eternal life" and she "made atonement for the sins of man."
If that's not putting her in the place of Christ as a god-like figure to be worshipped, then what is it?
"We believe in Trinity, the Bible, the resurrection, and that salvation is through Jesus Christ. These are the big issues," Warren says. "But the most important thing is if you love Jesus, we're on the same team."
To Warren's point about being on the same team, Slick.....
(Excerpt) Read more at charismanews.com ...
Ok...for the last time....the greek is translated as favored with grace....not full of grace. It makes all the difference in the world.
So now you are saying Mary also has this divine nature, whatever that is.
Using this word “nature” in describing Jesus who is fully God and fully a man muddles your understanding and I guess all who use that term to not comprehend what it is you are actually saying.
Do you not understand what it is, that Jesus is fully God and fully a man? That does not make him 2 people or make Mary the mother of God or translate into Mary being without sin. But nobody short the of Holy Spirit visiting you is going convince you otherwise, right?
Is this really "for the last time"?
It seemed too much to hope for. Thank you so much, ealgeone!
The verbal gymnastics catholics do to redefine a word or phrase so it doesn't mean what it means.
So now "to", "worship", "unanimous" don't mean to catholics what they mean to the rest of the world. Amazing.
The Hail Mary prayer is a prayer specifically to Mary....it is not "through" her.
But if it makes catholics feel better that you aren't praying to Mary, when you are, or that you aren't worshipping Mary, when you are, then I can't do anything about that.
You’ve been told the truth, yet you continue to ignore.
A mere mortal human could not handle the prayer requests Mary is said to be able to handle and do all of the other stuff she is claimed to be able to do by catholicism.
BTW Getting your information for the definition of Kecharitomene from the forum posts on fisheaters.com is rather risky as far as reliable isn’t it?
The key aspect to keep in mind regarding the perfect tense is that it describes as action that was brought to completion and whose effects are felt in the present. The time of the verb is from the standpoint of the writer/speaker, not the reader. What is present to the biblical writer may or may not be present to us. Mounce, Basics of Biblical Greek, p 223.
When Luke wrote this, these events had already transpired. From his perspective Mary had already been favored with grace(the past) when Gabriel made his statement to her. Note that he did not say from all time you have been favored with grace, but it was at that moment. From Luke's perspective she was still blessed (present effect).
The perfect tense is also used in verbs regarding our salvation. It shows the security of the believer.
I notice these sentences have been posted at least twice.
Are the comments your work. If so, what are your qualifications as a Greek linguist ? If not, did you lift them from somewhere without attributing them to the one who did the work ?
I see you wrote “Mounce, Badics of Biblical Greek, p 233” within the sentences. Does that mean only the preceding was his work and the rest your own ? Or vice versa ?
Yes it is! Unfortunately the Catholic Church did NOT get it's doctrine of Mary being "full of grace" from the Greek. It got it from the false translation of Jerome and the Latin Vulgate. The Latin Vulgate in Luke 1:28 uses "ave gratia plena" or "hail full of grace". That is NOT what the original Greek uses. The Catholic Church uses the FALSE translation of the Latin Vulgate NOT the original Koine Greek.
So your comment above, whether you realize it or not, is rather deceptive in that it would indicate that the Catholic Church took it's translation from the Koine Greek which IT DID NOT.
I repeat what I have said before. The Catholic Church uses deception for it's teachings and beliefs.
RC's just don't see it, do they?
Take that up with the Catholic Church. It's their description not mine. I was using the Catholic Church words to communicate with Catholics.
“Sorry dude, you say unanimous and people will know it means of one mind.”
Did you even read the article I posted a link to?
“So catholics have redefined the meaning of the word.”
Nope. Once again it is the Protestant anti-Catholic who is ignorant about the meaning of the word in the context in which it is used.
“That is simply insolent denial, for all to see. You were wrong that this was misrepresenting Kenrick;”
No, I was absolutely correct.
When liberals and Catholics are stumped they attach the messenger. It’s rather unbecoming in the religion forum.
“I have never warn a ring of any kind.”
Why did you repeatedly not answer the simplest of questions then?
“The feeble attempts at relevance or credibility you use are rather transparent.”
Nothing I did is feeble. Everything I did worked exactly as I expected it too. It always does. Anti-Catholics are predictable. And what I did was show you were wrong.
“The topic is that Catholics incorporate paganism into their worship of God and that fact is corroborated by not only the CC itself but many like Newman as well.”
And yet Protestants incorporate - according to your own standard - paganism into their worship as so clearly exemplified at weddings. And, denials aside, I wouldn’t be surprised if that hits closer to home to some than they would admit.
Again, Protestant anti-Catholics lie. As John Henry Newman, a former Protestant who knew Protestantism very well wrote:
“If you would have some direct downright proof that Catholicism is what Protestants make it to be, something which will come up to the mark, you must lie; else you will not get beyond feeble suspicions, which may be right, but may be wrong. Hence Protestants are obliged to cut their ninth commandment out of their Decalogue. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour” must go, must disappear; their position requires the sacrifice. The substance, the force, the edge of their Tradition is slander. As soon as ever they disabuse their minds of what is false, and grasp only what is true,—I do not say they at once become Catholics; I do not say they lose their dislike to our religion, or their misgivings about its working;—but I say this, either they become tolerant towards us, and cease to hate us personally,—or, at least, supposing they cannot shake off old associations, and are prejudiced and hostile as before, still they find they have not the means of communicating their own feelings to others. To Protestantism False Witness is the principle of propagation. There are indeed able men who can make a striking case out of anything or nothing, as great painters give a meaning and a unity to the commonest bush, and pond, and paling and stile: genius can do without facts, as well as create them; but few possess the gift. Taking things as they are, and judging of them by the long run, one may securely say, that the anti-Catholic Tradition could not be kept alive, would die of exhaustion, without a continual supply of fable.” (Lecture 4. True Testimony Insufficient for the Protestant View)
The eyeless in Gaza crowd sure has a lot to say about their buddy Ruck Warren.
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