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Did Adam and Eve Really Exist?
Crisis Magazine ^
| November 24, 2014
| DENNIS BONNETTE
Posted on 11/24/2014 1:07:14 PM PST by NYer
Pure myth! That is todays typical view of a literal Adam and Eve. Yet, contrary to current skepticism, a real Adam and Eve remain credibleboth in terms of Catholic doctrine and sound natural science.
By calling the Genesis story a myth, people avoid saying it is mere fantasy, that is, with no foundation in reality at all. While rejecting a literal first pair of human parents for all mankind, they hope to retain some deeper truth about an original sinful human condition, a mythic meaning. They think that the latest findings in paleoanthropology and genetics render a literal pair of first true human parents to be scientifically impossible.
The prevailing assumption underlying media reports about human origins is that humanity evolved very gradually over vast periods of time as a population (a collection of interbreeding organisms), which itself originally evolved from a Homo/Pan (human/chimpanzee) common ancestor millions of years ago. Therefore, we are not seen as descendants of the biblical Adam and Eve.
This universal evolutionary perspective leads many Catholics and others to conclude that a literal Adam and Eve is “scientifically impossible” for two reasons: First, paleoanthropologists deny the sudden appearance of intelligent, self-reflective, fully-human primates, but rather view the emergence of consciousness and intelligence as taking place slowly and incrementally over long periods of time. Second, in light of recent findings in molecular biology, especially from studies based on genetic data gleaned from the Human Genome Project, it is claimed that the hominin population (the primate group from which modern man is said to have arisen) has never had a bottleneck (reduced population) of a single mating pair in the last seven or more million years: no literal Adam and Eve. Many succumb to the modernist tendency to “adjust” Church teaching to fit the latest scientific claimsthus intimidating Catholics into thinking that divinely revealed truths can be abandonedif need be.
This skepticism of a literal Adam and Eve begs for four much needed corrections.
First, Church teaching about Adam and Eve has not, and cannot, change. The fact remains that a literal Adam and Eve are unchanging Catholic doctrine. Central to St. Paul’s teaching is the fact that one man, Adam, committed original sin and that through the God-man, Jesus Christ, redemption was accomplished (Romans 5:12-21; 1 Cor. 15: 21-22). In paragraphs 396-406, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, speaks of Adam and Eve as a single mating pair who “committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state (CCC, 404). Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back toward God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle (CCC, 405). The doctrines surrounding original sin cannot be altered without undermining the mystery of Christ (CCC, 389).
Today, many think that Pope Pius XIIs encyclical Humani generis did not definitively exclude theological polygenism. What they fail to notice, though, is that the Holy Father clearly insists that Scripture and the Magisterium affirm that original sin proceeds from a sin truly committed by one Adam [ab uno Adamo] and that this sin is transmitted to all true human beings through generation (para. 37). This proves that denial of a literal Adam (and his spouse, Eve) as the sole first genuinely human parents of all true human beings is not theologically tenable.
Second, rational human nature itself requires that mankind made an instant appearance on planet Earth. Paleoanthropological claims of gradual appearance of specifically human traits fail to comport with a true philosophy of human nature. Reflecting classical Christian thought, St. Thomas Aquinas demonstrates that true man is distinguished essentially from lower animals by possession of an intellectual and immortal soul, which possesses spiritual powers of understanding, judgment, and reasoning (Summa theologiae I, 75). While these qualitatively superior abilities are manifested through special forms of tool making or culture or art, they need not always be evident in the paleontological record. Sometimes true men share mere animal survival behavior and sometimes truly human behavior is lost to modern sight due to the ravages of time. What matters is that genuinely spiritual powers are either present or not, and that these alone bespeak the presence of true man. Irrational animals, including subhuman primates, are capable of complex sentient behaviors often approaching or imitating the rational activities of true man. But an animal either possesses a spiritual, intellectual soul or not. Thus at some point in time, true man suddenly appearswhether visible to modern science or not. Before that time, all subhuman behavior manifests merely material sensory abilities. The fact that positivistic scientists cannot discern the first presence of true man is hardly remarkable.
Third, a correct understanding of the scientific (inductive) method reveals that it cannot ever logically exclude the possibility of two sole founders of humanity. Natural scientific studies employ the inductive method of reasoning. Empirically observed data is employed to form testable hypotheses. Molecular biologists use computer models in an attempt to validate such hypotheses and reach conclusions about genetic conditions in early primate populations. In this process, some researchers have committed the logically invalid move of inferring from particular data to the universally negative claim that a literal Adam and Eve is impossible. Such methodology produces, at best, solely probable conclusions, based on available evidence and the assumptions used to evaluate the data. There is the inherent possibility that an unknown factor will alter the conclusion, similarly as was the unexpected discovery of black swans in Australia, when the whole world knew all swans were white.
Fourth, specific scientific arguments against Adam and Eve have proven not as forceful as many presently believe (Gauger 2012). For example, some have claimed that effective population size estimates for the last several million years would not permit just two true humans to have lived during that time. Still, the technical concept of average effective population size estimates should not be confused with an actual bottleneck (a temporarily reduced population) which may be much smaller. Effective population size estimates can vary from as high as 14,000 (Blum 2011) to as low as 2,000 (Tenesa 2007), depending on the methods used.
Such calculations rely upon many assumptions about mutation rate, recombination rate, and other factors, that are known to vary widely. All of this entails retrospective calculations about events in the far distant past, for which we have no directly verifiable data. For such reasons, some experts have concluded that effective population size cannot be determined using DNA sequence differences alone (Sjödin 2005; Hawks 2008).
Indeed, the most famous genetic study proclaimed as a scientific objection to Adam and Eve turned out to be based on methodological errors. An article by geneticist Francisco J. Ayala appearing in the journal, Science (1995), led many to believe that a founding population of only two individuals was impossible. Ayala based his challenge to monogenism (two sole founders of humanity) on the large number of versions (alleles) of the particular gene HLA-DRB1, which are present in the current population. Accepting the common ancestor theory, he claimed that there were thirty-two ancient lineages of the HLA-DRB1 gene prior to the Homo/Pan split (approximately seven million years ago). Over time, these pre-split lineages, themselves, evolved into the new additional versions present today. Because each individual carries only two versions of a gene, a single founding pair could not have passed on the thirty-two versions that Ayala claimed existed some seven million years agoeither at that time or at any time since. A bottleneck of just two true humans, Adam and Eve, was scientifically impossible.
However, Ayala’s claim of thirty-two ancient HLA-DRB1 lineages (prior to the Homo/Pan split) was wrong because of methodological errors. The number of lineages was subsequently adjusted by Bergström (1998) to just seven at the time of the split, with most of the genetic diversity appearing in the last 250,000 years. A still later study coming out of Bergströms group inferred that just four such lineages existed more than five million years ago, but that a few more appeared soon thereafter (von Salomé 2007). While two mating hominins can transmit four lineages, the few additional later ones still require explanation.
These genetic studies, based on many assumptions and use of computer models, do not tell us how the origin of the human race actually took place. But, they do show (1) that methodological limitations and radical contingency are inherent in such studies, which are employed to make retroactive judgments about deeply ancient populations that can never be subject to direct observation, and (2) that present scientific claims against the possibility of a literal Adam and Eve are not definitive (Gauger 2012, 105-122).
Philosopher Kenneth W. Kemp and others have suggested that interbreeding between true humans and subhuman primates in the same biological population might account for presently observed genetic diversity (Kemp 2011). Such interbreeding is not to be confused with the marriages between true human siblings and cousins which would have occurred in the first generations following Adam and Eve, which unions were a necessary part of Gods plan for the initial propagation of mankind (Gen. 1:28).
The difficulty with any interbreeding solution (save, perhaps, in rare instances) is that it would place at the human races very beginning a severe impediment to its healthy growth and development. Natural law requires that marriage and procreation take place solely between a man and a woman, so that children are given proper role models for adult life. So too, even if the union between a true human and a subhuman primate were not merely transitory, but lasting, the defective parenting and role model of a parent who is not a true human being would introduce serious disorder in the proper functioning of the family and education of children. Hence, widespread interbreeding is not an acceptable solution to the problem of genetic diversity.
Moreover, given the marked reduction in the number of ancient HLA-DRB1 alleles found by the later genetic studies of Bergström and von Salomé, it may turn out that no interbreeding is needed at all, or at most, that very rare instances of it may have occurred. Such rare events might not even entail the consent of true human beings, since they could result from an attack by a subhuman male upon a non-consenting human female.
A literal Adam and Eve remains rationally, scientifically credible.
Since the same God is author both of human reason and of authentic revelation, legitimate natural science, properly conducted, will never contradict Catholic doctrine, properly understood. Catholic doctrine still maintains that a literal Adam and Eve must have existed, a primal couple who committed that personal original sin, which occasioned the need for, and the divine promise of, the coming of the Redeemer, Jesus Christ.
Editors note: The image above is a detail from The Fall of Man painted by Hendrik Goltzius in 1616.
TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Religion & Science; Theology
KEYWORDS: adam; adamandeve; creation; crevo; crevolist; eve; evolution; fazalerana; gardenofeden; genesis; hughross; originalparents; origins
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To: redleghunter; Just mythoughts; boatbums
The blinding does not apply to the “lost sheep of the House of Israel”
As Yeshua himself stated, he was only sent to them! (Matthew 15:24)
They are the primary recipients of the gospel.
The House of Judah was blinded. That is essentially what Phariseeism is: total blindness to the gospel of the kingdom.
941
posted on
12/01/2014 9:35:58 AM PST
by
editor-surveyor
(Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
To: editor-surveyor
editor-surveyor:
"Your My
verbose nonsense accomplishes nothing. I'm
childish. I will
desist!" Thank you, sir.
942
posted on
12/01/2014 10:18:31 AM PST
by
BroJoeK
(a little historical perspective..)
To: BroJoeK
Little boy, I hope you’re having fun.
943
posted on
12/01/2014 12:47:22 PM PST
by
editor-surveyor
(Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
To: redleghunter
If, as a few are saying here, Romans 11:4 is a prophecy of the 7000 that will not fall for the lie of the antichrist and that number “7000” is literal, then I guess the part about it being “men” is literal, too? So, we women won't have a chance???
944
posted on
12/01/2014 12:48:30 PM PST
by
boatbums
(God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
To: editor-surveyor
I have no idea if we will need to be invisible, but Yeshua thought it important to tell Nicodemus, so well have to wait an see.
HUH???
John 3 (KJV)
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
945
posted on
12/01/2014 1:21:26 PM PST
by
Elsie
( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: redleghunter
946
posted on
12/01/2014 2:10:00 PM PST
by
daniel1212
(Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
To: BroJoeK
I believe what the Bible says, while acknowledging that some of it can be explained in natural-science terms, and much cannot.
Thanks. An interesting position.
947
posted on
12/01/2014 2:16:21 PM PST
by
redleghunter
(But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
To: boatbums
LOL, yep that was going to be my next observation. Sorry ladies, no 7000 for you!
948
posted on
12/01/2014 2:19:50 PM PST
by
redleghunter
(But let your word 'yes be 'yes,' and your 'no be 'no.' Anything more than this is from the evil one.)
To: Elsie
Did you bother reading verse 8?
Everyone that is born of the spirit can move about, invisibly, like the wind.
Obviously, nobody but Yeshua has been born of the spirit yet.
The word is read hard on your theology.
.
949
posted on
12/01/2014 3:08:15 PM PST
by
editor-surveyor
(Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
To: redleghunter
>>People who claim that all peoples walking this earth today came from Adam and Eve are biblically ignorant.<<
Genesis 4 King James Version (KJV) 4 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. 2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. Genesis 5 King James Version (KJV) 5 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; 2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. 3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth: 4 And the days of Adam after he had begotten Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters: 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. 6 And Seth lived an hundred and five years, and begat Enos: 7 And Seth lived after he begat Enos eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters: 8 And all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died. 9 And Enos lived ninety years, and begat Cainan: 10 And Enos lived after he begat Cainan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters: 11 And all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died. 12 And Cainan lived seventy years and begat Mahalaleel: 13 And Cainan lived after he begat Mahalaleel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters: 14 And all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died. 15 And Mahalaleel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared: 16 And Mahalaleel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters: 17 And all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died. 18 And Jared lived an hundred sixty and two years, and he begat Enoch: 19 And Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died. 21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah: 22 And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: 23 And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: 24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. 25 And Methuselah lived an hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech. 26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters: 27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died. 28 And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son: 29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the Lord hath cursed. 30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters: 31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died. 32 And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.(KJV)
What happened to the demand for 'context', 'context', 'context'!
Genesis 1:26 And God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let *them* (that would mean more than one) have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
Writers of history call this the period of 'hunter/gatherers'.
Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Genesis 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had mad; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made.
4 These are THE GENERATIONS OF THE HEAVENS AND OF THE EARTH when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew:
PAY ATTENTION to the rest of this verse
for the LORD God had not cause it to rain upon the earth, and there was NOT a man to till the ground.
So just as history records farming as a way of life.... was not created back on the sixth day.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
NOT one word here regarding when the 'soul' was created, yet God had Ezekiel declare in Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are Mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is Mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Now you can read the prior chapter that prior verses of Ezekiel to get the 'context' for why this declaration was given.
Back to Genesis and the recorded fact there were two different days of God forming flesh man wherein He breathed the breath of life which means soul in to the flesh vessel.
8 (And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there He put the man whom He had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for good; the 'tree of life' (Christ) also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil (signifying the serpent. (So the devil was symbolic of a 'tree' and a slithering, glistening snake.)
As it was this tree Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"
We already know from verse 9 the 'tree of the knowledge of good and evil as not 'good' for food.
Genesis 3:15 (first prophecy given) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her Seed; 'It shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise His heel."
God was not talking about apple seeds or pomegranate seeds when He had Moses pen this first prophecy.
Remember this man Adam was formed to 'till' the ground and God then formed different animals as recorded in 2:19.
Did you miss that in the Generations of Adam recorded in Genesis 5 Cain is not listed as Adam's child? Why Cain and his generations are listed in Genesis 4 all alone.
It is this ridiculous claim that all God's children came from just two people opened the door to the fairy tale/tail of evolution. DNA contains the history of the flesh body, God retains the history of each and every soul.
950
posted on
12/01/2014 8:25:56 PM PST
by
Just mythoughts
(Jesus said Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
To: redleghunter
If the big secret no one knows but Murrayites is the antichrist is from Satan, then get your money back from buying his videos and tapes. Your fellow Murrayite said the 7000 would be the ONLY ones to identify the antichrist. But you just pointed out scriptures any 12 yr old in Sunday school can point out. LOL I suppose I have been called worse. But this is the first occasion to be called a Murrayite Oddly I have yet to quote him regarding anything. Personally I prefer the Scripture and I am not aware of Murray writing any books.
It is not a secret big or small who the false messiah is, for any who read the 'volume of the Book'. Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 describes the first rebel and he is said to get tossed out of heaven. Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, call the Devil and Satan, which (guess what) deceiveth the whole world: he was cast into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our Go, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, (NOT a fly away doctrine) and by the word of their testimony; (reserved either figuratively or literally 7,000) and they loved not their lives unto their death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. WOE (tribulation of deception) to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
NOT a big secret.
951
posted on
12/01/2014 8:42:13 PM PST
by
Just mythoughts
(Jesus said Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
To: redleghunter
I think the rapture blanket folks would realize real quick the corruptable body remaining would be a huge hint its not Jesus Christ. Are you saying the rapture, the translation the caught up is not clearly shown in Scriptures? Before I ever heard of Murray, I knew the rapture doctrine was a hoax. It flies in opposition to everything Written. See I was raised in this notion that some people were too special to face the tribulation. That idea diminished the saving hands of our Lord and Savior.
Who do you think Paul was instructing in Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of His might.
Put on the whole armour of God,
that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle NOT against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God,
that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about the truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: ........
NOT one word from Paul about getting on the first UFO out of here.
952
posted on
12/01/2014 8:53:53 PM PST
by
Just mythoughts
(Jesus said Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
To: redleghunter
I think the rapture blanket folks would realize real quick the corruptable body remaining would be a huge hint its not Jesus Christ. Are you saying the rapture, the translation the caught up is not clearly shown in Scriptures? Well hey, you got it made. Where did God say He was going to rescind the law of gravity? And where does it say that the special people will be leaving behind their heavy flesh bodies? And further more where are you all going. Christ is coming here. I thought the raputremites loved Jesus.
953
posted on
12/01/2014 9:00:19 PM PST
by
Just mythoughts
(Jesus said Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife.)
To: editor-surveyor
editor-surveyor: "I'm a
Little boy with no clue, no facts and no serious arguments,
so I hope youre I'm
having fun posting insults."
Agreed.
954
posted on
12/02/2014 12:19:54 AM PST
by
BroJoeK
(a little historical perspective..)
To: redleghunter
redleghunter:
"Thanks. An interesting position." Do you disagree?
955
posted on
12/02/2014 1:01:16 AM PST
by
BroJoeK
(a little historical perspective..)
To: CatherineofAragon
We see that. Your so-called man of God doesn't need to meet any standards. You even excuse lying. You should be ashamed of yourself. Universities give out honorary doctorates all the time.
To: Elsie
Says the fella who seems to have a hard time posting 'proof'. Proof of what?
To: redleghunter
If the big secret no one knows but Murrayites is the antichrist is from Satan,...The antiChrist isSatan.
To: redleghunter
Ok so the Israelis are not Kenites as Murray asserted in your view.Of course Arnold does not say Israelis are Kenites. Now when you look at the two baskets of figs, the bad figs were prophesied to inhabit many nations, so there is some in many nations. Jesus got most of His disciples from around the Sea of Galilee. Those were very good figs and those people never left the area, even when the Romans sacked Jerusalem.
By your answer, then Romans 11 applies to real Jews and Israelites. So then to be in the 7000 you would hail from one of the 12 tribes of Israel. Why didnt you state you were of Hebrew origin? Or were you approaching Romans 9-11 metaphorically as opposed to literally?
Where do you get the idea that the elect have to be Israelite? I have no doubt Baruch was of the elect, and he was a gentile. Regardless, since the crucifixion all that believe in Jesus are of Abraham.
To: redleghunter
So Murray has no transcripts of his sermons for me to examine? Sorry no Dish. But I can read transcripts somewhere? I'm sure he does. I've always had him on my local station so there has never been a reason for me to look for them on the internet. I'm sure he's on in your area on one of the local stations in the morning.
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