Posted on 06/04/2014 6:52:46 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
In certain schools of Christian thought, hell is not everlasting, but a more painful form of purgatory.
M any Christians presume that hell is a place where brutally painful punishments are inflicted on evildoers for an indefinite, and perhaps infinite, amount of time in the afterlife. Think of a medieval torture chamber with no exit — or fire extinguishers.
But this, as I argued in a recent column, makes no theological sense. If morality is good, then doing the right thing must be its own reward and doing the wrong thing must be its own punishment. To think that a sinner deserves extra, externally imposed suffering presumes that morality isn't good and that those who commit evil deeds benefit from their actions — which is another way of saying that those who do the right thing are fools.
The more theologically sound position is to hold that hell is a state of being, whether in this life or the next, in which we confront our own self-imposed alienation from what is truly good — from God, in other words. This educative punishment can be extremely painful, but the pain flows intrinsically from knowledge of our own immoral acts. It isn't inflicted on us by some external tormenter.
That, at any rate, was my argument.
Let's just say that my readers weren't universally appreciative of it. A fair number of them apparently want very much to believe that a fairly large number of people are going to be made to suffer egregiously in hell for their bad behavior in life.
I suspect that these same readers, and perhaps many more, will be equally adamant that I'm wrong to follow the implications of my argument a few steps further — to assert that Christians have reason to believe that the punishments of hell, whatever they may be, are temporary for all.
That's right: I think it's likely that if there is an afterlife, everyone — even Judas, even Hitler — eventually ends up in heaven.
Now, I'm perfectly willing to concede that several Gospel passages seem to describe an eternity of damnation for at least some people in the afterlife (Matthew 7:13-14, 25:31-46; Mark 9:45-48; Luke 16:23; John 3:36). Though I'd also like to point out that only in one verse (Matthew 25:46) does Jesus speak of something that could plausibly be translated as "eternal punishment," and in words (aeonios kolasis) that could perhaps more accurately be rendered as "eternal correction."
Then there are those contrary passages that seem to imply that God wants everyone — and perhaps even all of creation — to enjoy salvation (Romans 5:18, 11:33-36; 1 Corinthians 15:22, 28; Philippians 2:10-11; Colossians 1:19-20; 2 Peter 3:9; Revelation 21:4).
This tension — not to say contradiction — has led some thinkers to dismiss or argue away the implications of the latter passages. Of all the church fathers, Tertullian may have gone furthest in this direction, writing at length and in gory detail about the endless sufferings inflicted on sinners in hell, and even suggesting that observing these torments is an important source of the bliss that accompanies salvation in heaven.
The problem with this position is that it seems to be a form of what Friedrich Nietzsche called "Christian malice": A psychological malady in which the stringent self-denial that Christianity demands of its adherents leads them to feel intense resentment for those who are insufficiently ascetic. Nietzsche delighted in showing how this dynamic can turn Christians from preachers of love into hateful fanatics out to inflict suffering on anyone who dares to enjoy life.
Not all Christians have confirmed Nietzsche's critique as perfectly as Tertullian. Others have been driven by theological reflection to move in the opposite direction — to speculate that all people might eventually enjoy salvation in heaven, no matter how awful their worldly sins may have been.
Origen in the 3rd century and Hans Urs von Balthasar in the 20th both affirmed versions of universal salvation. Yet I find the most compelling variation in the writings of the 4th-century theologian Gregory of Nyssa — a major figure in the history of Christianity, though one more widely revered today by the Eastern Orthodox than by the Western churches.
Gregory maintained that hell resembles something like what Catholics have traditionally called purgatory: A place of sometimes excruciatingly painful purgation of sins in preparation for heaven. The pain is not externally inflicted as punishment, but follows directly from the process of purification as the soul progresses toward a perhaps never fully realized union with divine perfection. Gregory describes this process as a "constant progression" or "stretching forth" (epektasis) of oneself toward an ever greater embrace of and merger with God in the fullness of eternity — a transmutation of what is sinful, fallen, and finite into the transcendent beauty of the infinite.
Hell, in this view, would be the state of agonizing struggle to break free from sin, to renounce our moral mistakes, to habituate ourselves to the good, to become ever more like God. Eastern Orthodox theologians (and, interestingly, Mormons, who hold similar views) call it a process of divination or sanctification (theosis) that follows directly from the doctrine of God's incarnation in Jesus Christ. It is a formula found in the writings of Clement of Alexandria, Athanasius, and other ancient theologians: God became a human being so that human beings might become like God.
All human beings.
One imagines that this would be a long, painful process — rendered longer and more painful for those who have fallen furthest from God during their lives. They are the ones for whom the afterlife is truly hellish — like a climb up a peak far, far higher than Mount Everest with little prior preparation or training, no expensive gear, and no Sherpas to help carry the load. But there would eventually be progress toward God, even for the climber who starts out in the worst possible shape, and from the lowest possible point in the valley below.
And at least there would be no dungeon pointlessly presided over by satanic, whip-wielding sadists.
from memory:
It is better for that man if he had never been born
straight is the way, narrow is the gate and few there be that find it
no one comes to the Father but by me
The guy who wrote that article is spewing garbage
Indeed! The mistake that a lot of people make is that they think sin eventually gets them into hell.
Ron Graham (RIP) wrote a spellbinding article on hell a few years ago.
Jesus is our only lifeline out of that horror.
https://www.raptureready.com/featured/graham/g146.html
I think Turner only means to suggest that “aionian” or “age-abiding” must be allowed to have a rather broad meaning based on just what is being asserted in the context.
Yep. The fire is eternal. But ONLY the fire is described as eternal. The fate of those thrown into it is that they are burned up. The fire is all consuming. If those thrown into it are not consumed, the fire is not all consuming.
I completely disagree. Hell is for those who reject God in this life, and thus will live without Him in the next.
Be careful. Those who die in their sins, even though they will be 'resurrected unto damnation' (Daniel 12:2, John 5:29), will NEVER 'live' again. They will exist, but the Bible uses the word live/life (eternal life) for those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ in this life.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? (John 11:25,26)
The believer 'never dies' (his spirit lives, though the flesh dies). The unbeliever's dead spirit is resurrected and that damnable creature, fully deserving of the just punishment God will impose, will be tormented forever in the lake of fire. See Revelation 20, 21.
We condemn ourselves to Hell by choosing to reject God’s will, in favor of our own, as well as our unwillingness to love our neighbor.
God's will is that we all come to the knowledge of the truth and trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ. Those who trust in their own righteousness to save them (and there are many we perceive as 'good people' who are sadly trusting in their own works) will spend eternity in hell with Hitler and Judas.
We should love our neighbor. But that doesn't mean we are to love those who hate God. God will chastise us for that error.
And Jehoshaphat the king of Judah returned to his house in peace to Jerusalem. 2And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD. 3Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thine heart to seek God. (2 Chronicles 19:1-3)
So, what was the rich man doing asking Abraham to send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool his tongue, saying he is tormented in this flame? (Luke 16:19-31)
http://jeremyandchristine.com/articles/lazarus.html
Another point that needs to be made is that there can be a difference between “everlasting punishment” and “everlasting torment.” The punishment can be construed to be irreversible destruction.
“Atheists” can be conservative too—you’d be surprised actually.
re: This is about man, not the “devil”. And you quoted Revelation. It is one of my favorite books of the bible, but it is very, VERY symbolic in its language. I never use it as a primary proof of anything, but as supporting other biblical proofs.
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Even books that have symbolism in them MUST have some form of literalism in it, otherwise words become meaningless.
So, do the words “tormented forever and ever” mean what it says, or should it be understood symbolically? if so, why?
I actually got the feeling at first that he was suggesting that hell is an everlasting search for reaching the perfection required on your own to be acceptable to God and, although you keep improving, you are never quite there.
It’s not where he was going, but it’s an interesting thought.
Personally, I think those that do not accept Christ, no matter how good they are, at the great white throne judgement are destroyed for all eternity. To the saved it is as though they never existed.
The most popular verse in the Christian world is John 3:16...yet very few "get it":
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
The choices are "perish"...and the greek means to destroy fully. To die. And everlasting life.
Paul makes the same point:
Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Death..or eternal life. Not ETERNAL LIFE and then torture.
Man, by default, without Christ, does not have eternal life. We are not immortal. That way was blocked:
Gen_3:24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
It is a Satanic lie that we have, or can have life, without Christ. That we are immortal without our Lord and Savior:
Gen 2:15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."
You will be mortal. You will die. You will not have eternal life. But what is the lie of Satan?
Gen 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
It's a lie that we have eternal lie already. It's a lie that we are immortal without Christ. It's a Satanic lie that goes against what God expressly said.
Who is hellfire prepared for?
Mat 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
The eternal fire is prepared for the devil and his angels...demons. People thrown into it, people who reject Christ, people who don't have eternal life...SURELY DIE.
re: People thrown into it, people who reject Christ, people who don’t have eternal life...SURELY DIE.
So, why is the rich man conscious and in torment, needing Lazarus to come and cool his tongue?
First torment, then destruction.
Remember, the bible was not written in English, and Revelation is a book of symbolism.
You are ignoring many, MANY scriptures that juxtapose the fate of the saved as eternal life and the fate of the unsaved as its opposite - death, destruction, perish, etc.
And frankly, the message of the destruction of the lost fits more with the personality of God. Even in the OT, his punishment was to wipe out entire nations. Even Sodom was not tortured, but annihilated.
God’s past and current dealing with those that are not His involves two courses:
1. Turn them to Him
2. Get rid of them.
In this article, for example, Linker completely ignores what Jesus Christ and Christian scripture says repeatedly about life after death and who may enter Heaven and who may not. There will be a separation of wheat from chaff, of goats from sheep, and the weeds will burn for eternity.
At least, in the English translation.
RE: It is necessary to examine closely the terms of the original and what their range of meaning might have been to those who used them.
OK, I’m all ears, what are the range of meanings of the word : “forever and ever?”
Hear is the English definition of the word — forever:
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=meaning%3A%20forever
“for all future time; for always.”
“continually”
“lasting or permanent”
What other range of meaning are there?
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