How Hitler and Judas could end up in heaven

The Week ^ | 06/04/2014 | Damon Linker

[Alex Murphy]

If morality is good, then doing the right thing must be its own reward and doing the wrong thing must be its own punishment. To think that a sinner deserves extra, externally imposed suffering presumes that morality isn't good and that those who commit evil deeds benefit from their actions — which is another way of saying that those who do the right thing are fools. The more theologically sound position is to hold that hell is a state of being, whether in this life or the next, in which we confront our own self-imposed alienation from what is truly good — from God, in other words. This educative punishment can be extremely painful, but the pain flows intrinsically from knowledge of our own immoral acts. It isn't inflicted on us by some external tormenter. That, at any rate, was my argument....

....That's right: I think it's likely that if there is an afterlife, everyone — even Judas, even Hitler — eventually ends up in heaven.

This is what happens when you divorce theology from Sola Scriptura. Like liberal Democrat Damon Linker, your thinking takes you anywhere but the place where God has already spoken.

[Genoa]

I already posted about the Greek. The semantic range of an English word is what it is, but only the original languages are significant for exegeting scripture.

[cuban leaf]

I believe the Bible clearly teaches Hell is forever.

Actually, it teaches that hell is temporary and is itself thrown into the lake of fire. And the lake of fire is to the “second death” what being a lampstand is to being a church in revelation.

It is a euphemism, typical of the language of Revelation. The clear message that you can get from it is that those that are not saved are removed from revelence to the rest of us. It is finished.

[Genoa]

Good reading here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_conditionalism

[nonsporting]

Judas is in hell and will be for all eternity. He is a devil. And the lake of fire was prepared for Satan and all his minion to suffer torment forever.

Further, those who reject Jesus Christ and die in their sins will join him there forever ("where the worm dieth not and fires are not quenched.")

Some will try to twist this and similar scriptures and perform all manner of "logic" and creative reinterpreting of words to conclude that once the fuel (the dead) is consumed the fires will end. No verse of scripture is of private interpretation. That is why we use the Bible to clarify itself on this matter. Those tossed in the LOF will suffer ENDLESS torment. We see this from Revelation 14 for those who take the mark of the beast. (BTW this in not their exclusive punishedment, the punishment for all)

9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. (Revelation 14:9-11)

And we see that hell is NOT "separation from God" as some teach. The Lamb (Jesus Christ) is there in LOF. We learn from a correctly translated 2 Thessalonians 1:9 that "everlasting destruction" comes "from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power." The Lord is the source of the destruction.

[Biggirl]

It is a “seperation from God” like it or not.

[PieterCasparzen]

I’m a Christian first, always. The Bible tells me I can’t make deals with the devil to try to gain victory, but I must trust ONLY in the Lord as the source of victory.

And it makes perfect sense. When you make a deal with the devil, you don’t get success, you get burned.

Since the Bible commands me thus, I have no communion with the servants of Satan, I don’t care what they call themselves.

Conservatism as I knew it years ago was an illusion.

So-called conservatives either knowingly or unknowingly are just pushing towards new world order from a different direction than the left.

The proof is in the pudding - conservative / Republican politicans are selling out Christians as fast as they can.

No political leaders in American today at the Federal level want a Christian America. They all want a pluralistic America.

Once America became pluralistic, it was no longer a Christian nation.

Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus Christ say that it’s acceptable to him to accept the promotion of not believing in Jesus Christ.

Christ made it crystal clear - a man is either with him or against him.

Being a Christian nation does NOT mean forced conversions. Like the type of ancient Israel, strangers (non-Christians) certainly can live in a Christian nation. They would be subject to civil laws, they would not be under the authority of a church. The civil laws in a Christian nation would be compatible with the Bible, for example, pre-meditated murder would require the death penalty, no exceptions. The tough one to stomach for many people would be that they would have to not insult God publicly, i.e., commit blasphemy. They could be as athiest as they want, they just could not promote anti-Christ rejection of God.

Most any nation you visit, you need to live by THEIR laws. If the nation you VISIT as a stranger says it’s illegal to insult what they hold dear, then the visitor is well advised to just keep their mouth shut when they feel like publicly insulting what the nation they are living in holds dear.

But we don’t live in a Christian nation nowadays, we live in a pluralistic nation.

So our nation is headed towards either a) covenanting with God and Christian revival or b) God’s judgement.

[paladinan]

Another point that needs to be made is that there can be a difference between “everlasting punishment” and “everlasting torment.” The punishment can be construed to be irreversible destruction.

I don't see how... unless one ignores (or "explains away") the rest of Scripture! That interpretation would make nonsense of the verse:

"and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Revelation 20:10)

...and the following:

"And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name." (Revelation 14:11)

Taking the second case first:

1) I do wonder if anyone would be tempted to say, about Rev 14:11, "Ah! But it says that the SMOKE of their torment goes up forever and ever, but maybe God allowed the tormented souls to be consumed, and He just keeps the smoke around, eternally rising, as a memento!" If so, then I can only reply that such an idea is... weird, to say the least (and Occam's Razor cuts it to ribbons).

2) I also wonder if anyone would try to say, about Rev 20:10, "Ah! God torments the DEVIL and his DEMONS eternally (or at least the devil, death, the beast, and the false prophet), but it doesn't say that He'll torment the HUMAN souls of the DAMNED eternally! Those, He'll treat differently, and with ore mercy!" That idea would be simply short-sighted and wrong, for the following reasons:

a) God is all-merciful.
b) God is all-good.
c) God does not--nay, He CANNOT--create anything which is evil. When Lucifer and the (now) fallen angels were first created, they were 100% good.
d) God loves all His children--all His creatures--infinitely.
e) It is completely contrary to the Nature of God that He should freely create angels whom He knew would suffer eternally. If God is so "merciful" as to annihilate the souls of the damned in order to "spare them suffering", then what are we to make of the same God Who would allegedly create (with full foreknowledge) immortal angels who would fall and suffer eternally?

[paladinan]

You may note that I quoted Revelation in GREEK. Yes, I know that the Bible was not written in English!

Aside from this, see my previous post.

[The Great RJ]

I would think some people get eternal punishment out of Divine justice. While God’s mercy is without limit God is also just and there are many references in scripture about a Divine judgement when the good will be rewarded and the evil ones punished. I can’t help but to think that Hitler was harshly judged for the evil he did. You also have to consider that Satan is a force of evil who seeks to take souls from God. I believe that the 9/11 hijackers were seduced by Satan and convinced that mass murder was an act of religious piety that would be pleasing to God. I am sure that they found that was not the case.

[Biggirl]

And BTW, what is a “correctly translated 2 Thessalonians 1:9” mean anyways?

[cuban leaf]

So, do the words “tormented forever and ever” mean what it says, or should it be understood symbolically? if so, why?

---

The bible was not written in english. There are some posts above that touch on the meanings in the original language. Blueletterbible and biblehub.com also give some wonderful clarity on the language and the meaning of words.

There are many clear meanings one can glean from the writings in Revelation, but once one sees the churches as literal lampstands, they may be missing the deeper point of the scripture.

The deep point regarding the fate of the lost is that they do not receive eternal life in the presence of God, hence they are removed from the saved, and they will regret their choice.

To suggest that a person who reached the age of accountability, and was never taught about Christ before dying, is going to spend literal “time without end” in conscious torture does not fit with the personality of the God of the bible. Even in the OT time before Christ, if he was not pleased, people were simply destroyed, not tortured. Torturing is what despots do.

And remember, according to the bible the road is narrow, meaning most people will not be saved, meaning the fate of the lost is the default condition for most of humanity. It implies that God continues to allow people to be born by the billions, knowing full well that most of them will not be saved. And if the eternal suffering message is true, this makes Him kinda creepy and sadistic.

Sorry, it just does. But that is not the personality of the God of the bible in all his dealings with man. His wrath means death. I would that nobody comes to Jesus just because they are scared to death of what happens if they don’t. Rather, my God gives us a fair choice. Eternal life with him or the ecclesiastes life of “eat and drink and enjoy the fruits of your labor, and then you die.” The fate of animals and the pure natural man.

[JT Hatter]

In this article, for example, Linker completely ignores what Jesus Christ and Christian scripture says repeatedly about life after death and who may enter Heaven and who may not. There will be a separation of wheat from chaff, of goats from sheep, and the weeds will burn for eternity.

---

I agree with most of it, except the last five words. What He says repeatedly about the lost is that they will go to death, destruction, perish, etc.
At least, in the English translation.

---

That’s the debate. And you can find scripture to support both positions: 1) whether sinners are punished for a while, then destroyed utterly or 2) sinners burn in hellfire for eternity.

There is even debate about whether the translations have got the idea of eternity correct: is it a few aeons or is it really eternity.

And of course, there are debates about some sinners going to hellfire for eternity and others getting erased.

Some scripture to think about:

Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

And there’s always this:

Revelation 14:9-11

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name”

[cuban leaf]

So, why is the rich man conscious and in torment, needing Lazarus to come and cool his tongue?

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http://jeremyandchristine.com/articles/lazarus.html

[PieterCasparzen]

This is insanely “not smart”, the whole discussion, right ?

I mean, really...

Does it make sense to profess a faith based on the Bible, then...

instead of studying the Bible to learn about that faith...

people start making up their own doctrine...

discussing how they might SURVIVE HELL ?

So (how idiotic is this) we’re implying that maybe it will be fine if we go to hell.

Maybe we can go to purgatory and then graduate to heaven.

Is purgatory taught in the Bible ? Sorry folks, it’s not.

But we certainly can spend the rest of our natural lives posting on the internet arguing that wicked reprobates might go to heaven.

Ain’t that smart ? And a great use of time, as well.

Never mind that in many places in Scripture we are specifically, clearly told on no uncertain terms that Christians continuing in our former sins prior to our conversion - will definitely mean we do NOT inherit the Kingdom of heaven.

This is not all aimed at you, cuban leaf, I’m just ranting in agreement with you.

[SeekAndFind]

Our topic is not about the NATURE of the punishment, the topic is about the LENGTH of the punishment. We'll talk about the nature of the punishment later. Let's talk about the length first.

So, you seem to be telling me that the words "forever and ever" have a different meaning or nuance in the Greek.

OK, I'm all ears.

Here is the Greek standard words of Revelation 20:10:

καὶ ὁ διάβολος ὁ πλανῶν αὐτοὺς ἐβλήθη εἰς τὴν λίμνην τοῦ πυρὸς καὶ θείου, ὅπου καὶ τὸ θηρίον καὶ ὁ ψευδοπροφήτης, καὶ βασανισθήσονται ἡμέρας καὶ νυκτὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.

How should the words: εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων. be correctly translated or understood in English?

[Genoa]

I can’t resist adding that Martin Luther himself included the inherent immortality of the soul as one of the components of the “Roman dunghill of decretals”!

[CA Conservative]

.....Or begin by believing in God, you are on your way to salvation.

That is a first step, but is not sufficient on its own.

"You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!" (James 2:19)

So while believing in God is a necessary prerequisite, merely believing in God does not mean you are saved. You must still repent and accept the sacrificial death of Christ as atonement for your sins, and make Him Lord of your life.

[Genoa]

I posted up-thread about this passage, see 16 and 25.

[metmom]

But this, as I argued in a recent column, makes no theological sense. If morality is good, then doing the right thing must be its own reward and doing the wrong thing must be its own punishment. To think that a sinner deserves extra, externally imposed suffering presumes that morality isn't good and that those who commit evil deeds benefit from their actions — which is another way of saying that those who do the right thing are fools.

Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Jesus talked plenty of hell and eternal torment.

Eternal means eternal......