Such a position puts the plain rendering of language at the mercy of the subjectivist.
I like the final footnote of the paper:
In their efforts to limit Revelation to the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem, preterists take the beast to be Nero. But a simple reading of the text indicates that the beast is destroyed at the Second Coming of Christ (Rev. 19:20). The contradiction couldn't be clearer: How could Nero be the beast of Revelation when he perished in A.D. 68 yet Christ has yet to come?
...have no evidence.
From some lengthy discussions, I have found they mostly offer non-Bible-based arguments that are conclusory. If they do try to support their ideas with scripture, the argument becomes a non sequitur that doesn't support their conclusions.
As long as you stick with Bible-based reasoning and don't let them pull into religious sect or labeling arguments, you're fine.
I think Luke 9:27 is a perplexing text that gives preterists the fuel for their beliefs.
The definition of revelation is "to make known", reveal.
Who was it written to?(Hint: They no longer exist.)
When did John warn them the events would happen?
When was it written?(Hint: The Temple John measured was the one destroyed in AD 70.)
How old would those 2 witnesses be now?
Many of the futurist scares melt away in the context of who the revelation was intended for.
If Revelation is already fulfilled, then there’s not a heckuva lot of hope in the future. Technology is becoming so invasive and overpowering that we will even beyond an Orwellian police state to more like a Borg collective on steroids. Not in control of ourselves, and even the environment will be altered to the point that the surrounding environment will essentially be pure poison to anyone not in the collective.
We will literally be unwilling slaves to pure evil. So everyone better really hope the preterists are dead wrong.
The Him is Jesus, it is future, at the Rapture of the church.
“In their efforts to limit Revelation to the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem, preterists take the beast to be Nero. But a simple reading of the text indicates that the beast is destroyed at the Second Coming of Christ (Rev. 19:20). The contradiction couldn’t be clearer: How could Nero be the beast of Revelation when he perished in A.D. 68 yet Christ has yet to come?”
Yes, that’s a bit of a pickle. The only logically consistent option is moving Christ’s return back to that era as well, and that just brings up more problems.
If Christ already returned, then why are didn’t he gather all the Christians to Him and resurrect them to everlasting life, as He promised He would do when He returned? Why didn’t He bring peace on earth, and goodwill toward man? Why didn’t he mete out vengeance to God’s enemies and tread the winepress of His wrath? For preterists trying to wrap up all the prophecies into a nice little fulfilled package, there is an awful lot of unfinished business anyone can see Christ still needs to take care of.
It also brings up the problem that, if these prophecies were fulfilled by 70 AD, why did none of the Christians alive at that time seem to notice? Why were they still speaking of these series of events culminating in Christ’s return being something in the future to look out for in the Didache, written not long after that period? I guess some of them could have been spiritually blind, but the entirety of the church? If that were true, what would that say of the utility of the prophecies, if nobody even recognized them after they were fulfilled in front of their eyes?
I find it interesting that those who read the Genesis story of creation in 6 days rush to find the prof in spite of what “science” says, but when Jesus says “I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.” they look - with equal zeal - to find evidence that this is not what he really meant at all.
Many hold the view that the Church replaced Israel, so the book of Revelation must be in their minds somehow fulfilled in August of 70 AD with the Temple desolation, even though by many accounts it wasn’t written until at least 95 AD.
“I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.” Revelation 2:9
God is not done with Israel, the Church is set upon a pedestal in the spirit, we are not the flesh that rejected him, he has made us kings and priests after the order of Melchizedek,
It is ironic about those having that viewpoint, they see a mote of someone named ‘Darby’ or ‘Lindsey’ in others and yet in their arrogance they cant see ‘Augustine’ as the beam in their own eye,
We live in a age where we have leisure time access to records, documents, various translations, unearthed biblical history, the dead sea scrolls and indexed commentaries etc., knowledge of him has now greatly increased and we travel too and fro to begin to understand these things, we are without excuse to discern the signs of the times,
But he will resolve the transgressors of the Law (Israel) at the time of the end per Daniel Chapter 9, when they come to the full with the gentiles, there is a specific timing element relating to the Jubilee restoration of all things, which he knows how and when to account for it via Leviticus Chapter 25, and this is exactly what is being shown to us in Revelation Chapters 4, 5 and 6.
The Heavens must receive Jesus, until that time as Peter stated in the book of Acts,
Then in Psalm 2 we’re told the Father will make the kingdoms of this world his footstool and give him the nations for his inheritance, which was stolen from him, the Lord of the vineyard will return and deal with the wicked tenets,
“For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: “ Isaiah 14:1
There is only the second time,
At the time of the end, ‘in those days’ the ‘day of the lord’, be sensitive to this language all throughout scripture, it sets the awareness of the timing,
“In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve. “ Jeremiah 50:20
“When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.” Psalm 102:16
And at the time of the end, ‘that day’ when the restrainer, the comforter, is no longer holding back this great evil,
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.” 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
‘In their efforts to limit Revelation to the A.D. 70 destruction of Jerusalem, preterists take the beast to be Nero. But a simple reading of the text indicates that the beast is destroyed at the Second Coming of Christ (Rev. 19:20). The contradiction couldn’t be clearer: How could Nero be the beast of Revelation when he perished in A.D. 68 yet Christ has yet to come?’
Twisting the meanings of what I read to be plain spoken foretelling of future events, events that have not yet happened, you must ask what would motivate the preterists to do this? An even more interesting question would be who or what entity is behind this?
The Bible warns of the false prophets who will attempt to misled the Faithful in the Last Days. It appears to me to be one more attempt to do just that, this is not new by the way, I have heard it before in various Bible study groups that I attended and left in short order.
Still much to come though!!!!
Hi, Dartuser. I see you have been poisoning the well. No matter, anyone with a half-decent understanding of the scripture will not be hurt by your poison.
Tony Garland needs to get out more. Dispensationalists have been fleeing the fold; and when they do they typically become some of dispensationalism's most vocal critics.
One assumption that Garland makes is that Christ did not mean it when he made these statements:
"But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." (Mt 10:23 KJV)
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you,There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." (Mt 16:27-28 KJV)
It is impossible to explain away those verses without spiritualizing the scriptures. Those passages are crystal clear that Christ was to return within his own generation to take control of his kingdom.
And then there are these statements that make it virtually impossible for the Revelation's "Great Whore," Babylon the Great, to be any other city than 1st century Jerusalem:
"That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Lk 11:50-51 KJV)
"Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem." (Lk 13:33 KJV)
"Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her." (Rev 18:20 KJV)
"And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth." (Rev 18:24 KJV)
We only had a limited supply of prophets to be murdered.
Garland would be do well to learn that there were two Jerusalem's in prophecy: the one that had the children of Israel in bondage--the one that was destroyed; and the heavenly one where everyone is free:
"Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all." (Gal 4:24-26 KJV)
Therefore, to better understand old testament prophecies, when Jerusalem is in question, one should weigh the heavenly Jerusalem of freedom with the earthly Jerusalem of tyranny, to determine the better fit.
Philip
>>>The preterists assure us that this verse is describing the “cloud coming” of Jesus Christ in judgment upon Jerusalem (at which every eye did not see Him). They assert that this was fulfilled when Jerusalem was destroyed in A.D. 70 and that the context of the verse is restricted either to Jerusalem and its environs, or to the Roman empire and Mediterranean region. They achieve this exegetical slight-of-hand by restricting “tribes” to mean “Israel” and “earth” to be “land.” Thus, they maintain that only the “[Israelite] tribes of the land” are specified in this passage.<<<
Literalism is a virtual minefield, that should only be considered with much caution, and always in context. For example, if everyone must literally see Jesus coming in the clouds, then how can the following be literally fulfilled?
"Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged." (Jn 16:7-11 KJV)
Those are the words of Jesus, and are crystal clear. Even His beloved John did not see Jesus on Patmos. Jesus sent his angel:
"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star." (Rev 22:16 KJV)
So, which is it? Do we all see him, or do we not see him? Or, are Rev 1:7 and Matt 24:30 referring to something allegorical that the high priest Caiaphas "understood" to be blasphemy:
"Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven." (Mt 26:64 KJV)
Recall that in the old testament, the Lord's presence was generally hidden or masked by a "cloud" or "fire," of sorts. When the Lord was present otherwise, it was typically as an angel of the Lord, as both Moses and John experienced.
In all cases, he is the same Lord: the one who spoke to Moses via his angel from the "burning bush;" the one who came unto Moses "in a thick cloud;" the one who went before the children of Israel in a "pillar of a cloud;" the one who spoke to John via his angel on Patmos; and the one who comes "in the clouds of heaven" in the Revelation.
Philip
Revelation, chapter 1
CHAPTER 1
1The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show his servants what must happen soon. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,a
2who gives witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ by reporting what he saw.
3Blessed is the one* who reads aloud and blessed are those who listen to this prophetic message and heed what is written in it, for the appointed time is near.b
II. Letters to the Churches of Asia
Greeting.*
4John, to the seven churches in Asia:* grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,c
5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead and ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us* from our sins by his blood,d
6who has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father, to him be glory and power forever [and ever]. Amen.e
7Behold, he is coming amid the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him.
All the peoples of the earth will lament him.
Yes. Amen.f
8“I am the Alpha and the Omega,”* says the Lord God, “the one who is and who was and who is to come, the almighty.”g
======================
Footnotes :
* [1:1–3] This prologue describes the source, contents, and audience of the book and forms an inclusion with the epilogue (Rev 22:6–21), with its similar themes and expressions.
* [1:3] Blessed is the one: this is the first of seven beatitudes in this book; the others are in Rev 14:13; 16:15; 19:9; 20:6; 22:7, 14. This prophetic message: literally, “the words of the prophecy”; so Rev 22:7, 10, 18, 19 by inclusion. The appointed time: when Jesus will return in glory; cf. Rev 1:7; 3:11; 22:7, 10, 12, 20.
* [1:4–8] Although Revelation begins and ends (Rev 22:21) with Christian epistolary formulae, there is nothing between Rev 4; 22 resembling a letter. The author here employs the standard word order for greetings in Greek letter writing: “N. to N., greetings…”; see note on Rom 1:1.