...have no evidence.
From some lengthy discussions, I have found they mostly offer non-Bible-based arguments that are conclusory. If they do try to support their ideas with scripture, the argument becomes a non sequitur that doesn't support their conclusions.
As long as you stick with Bible-based reasoning and don't let them pull into religious sect or labeling arguments, you're fine.
I couldn't get past the first paragraph before finding a serious flaw in Tony Garland's interpretation and reasoning regarding Zechariah 12. A casual study of Zechariah chapters 11-14 reveals the following:
In Zechariah 11 there is an unmistakable reference to Judas and the thirty pieces of silver:
"And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the Lord said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord." (Zec 11:12-13 KJV)
This is the fulfillment in Matthew:
"Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in." (Mt 27:3-7 KJV)
Now let's look at a verse in Zechariah 13:
"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones." (Zec 13:7 KJV)
That was fulfilled when Jesus was crucified, as he explained in Matthew 26:31 and Mark 14:27.
"And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered." (Mk 14:27 KJV)
Next, in chapter 14, we see the day of Pentecost:
"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be." (Zech 14:8)
That was also prophesied by Joel:
"And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:" (Joel 2:28 KJV)
But Joel only mentioned the holy spirit. However, in John, Jesus explains that the holy spirit on the day of Pentecost was the living water:
"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)" (Jn 7:37-39 KJV)
The living water was the Holy Ghost, also called "the Comforter," which was received by many on the day of Pentecost: hence the use of the plural in Zechariah: living waters.
This was the fulfillment, found in the book of the Acts, which occurred in Jerusalem, the location specified by Zechariah:
"But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:" (Acts 2:16-18 KJV)
So, in the last days (last days of the age,) the holy spirit (the Comforter) was given to "all flesh."
Notice the allegorical language Jesus used in his prophecy in John 7:38 to identify those who had received the awesome powers of the holy spirit: "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
Sandwiched between those chapters--which contain clear references to the betrayal of Christ, the scattering of the disciples after the crucifixion, and the day of Pentecost, respectively--is chapter 12.
The most obvious reference in chapter 12 is verse 10, which prophesies the piercing of Jesus by the Roman soldier during His crucifixion, which John 19:34 indicates is the fulfillment of that prophecy:
"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn." (Zec 12:10 KJV)
The underlined word "me" should leave no doubt who was being pierced. This is the fulfillment, according to John:
"Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced." (Jn 19:32-37 KJV)
And, so, we see the following prophecies in consecutive chapters:
Chapter 11: Betrayal of Christ
Chapter 12: Crucifixion of Christ
Chapter 13: Scattering of Disciples
Chapter 14: The day of Pentecost
Therefore, any reasonable interpretation of the other verses in Zechariah 12 would be centered around the crucifixion of Christ. Tony Garland's spiritualization of chapter 12 to fit a chiliast agenda is a serious interpretive error.
Philip
I forgot to mention this in my previous post to you; but did you notice that Tony Garland was barely three paragraphs in before poisoning the well with a labelling argument? So did dartuser in his very first post (#1.)
I wanted to make sure you caught that.
Philip