Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol

reformation21 ^ | April 2012 | Carl Trueman

[Elsie]

Was she your wife at the time?

[Elsie]

I have just made a $250 donation and I will make another $750 donation if anyone can disprove my claim that there is more Scripture in a Catholic Mass than in a protestant service on any Sunday.

Slacker!

Why don't YOU 'prove' your claim that there IS!

(You'd save $750!!)

[Elsie]

My understanding was...

Well, the FACTS have shown THAT to be wrong.

---

I agree that the KJV was a subsequent translation of a translation; which initially started with King Henry.

With WHOM are you agreeing here?

And where is the EVIDENCE that what you've stated here is not also 'misunderstood'?

[Elsie]

I am sure I will stand corrected by both the protestants and Catholics on this.

If you feel this way, then why waste time posting dubious stuff?

It just confuses any lurkers that might come along.

[Karl Spooner]

No. A high school pregnancy got her kicked out.

[Elsie]

Well, we all get flamed by the zealots of their religions from time to time.

---

I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!"

"Why shouldn't I?" he said.

 

I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!"

He said, "Like what?"

 

I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?"

He said, "Religious."

 

I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?"

He said, "Christian."

 

I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?"

He said, "Protestant."

 

I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?"

He said, "Baptist!"

 

I said,"Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of GOD or Baptist Church of the Lord?"

He said, "Baptist Church of GOD!"

 

I said, "Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of GOD, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of GOD?"

He said,"Reformed Baptist Church of GOD!"

 

I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of GOD, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of GOD, reformation of 1915?"

He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of GOD, reformation of 1915!"

 

I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off.

-- Emo Phillips

[Elsie]

But they have COOKIES!

[Elsie]

I’ve told a few in my time. Some might have been on these very pages.

But I hope I’m doing better.

Ya can’t hang around here for 15.5 years without improving your game a bit.

[Elsie]

We venerate the relics of saints, absolutely, for these are bodies that will rise up.

WHOA!!

I thought 'saints' are in Heaven already??

[annalex]

["κεχαριτωμενη"] indicates that God has already "graced" Mary previous to this point

Right. The point remains that "full of grace" is the historical translation offered by Jerome and it is correct. Other paraphrases, such as even simply "graced" are possible. To substitute "favor" for grace in this context is not acceptable, -- no translator, even among the Protestant sleazebags, would use "favor" anywhere in St. Paul's writings, so why use it here? It is sheer mariophobia, even when a "catholic" translation does it. We also had "catholic" priests running after pubescent boys not long ago.

what sets them apart is its canoncity

Correct, and as I explained, what the canonicity implies.

What if any distinction do you see are regards any type and level of Divine inspiration of Scripture, and doctors and prelates of the church of Rome?

The distinction between canonical scripture and other writings is the canonicity of the former. Between various figures of authority in the Church, it is case by case and opinions may vary. But generally, those who were sainted, those who came earlier, those who have been named doctors, popes, -- have precedence. Certainly if any teaching of an authority has been condemned, the entire authority suffers to an extent. So, for example, Origen is extremely important as one who was so instrumental in sorting out the issues of canonicity of the New Testament books; but at the same time he was never glorified as saint and taught something that was possibly touched with universalist heresy. Aquinas, albeit from scholastic period, is held in very high regard due to the encyclopedic nature of his insights, even though some of his opinions are not shared by the Church Catholic. There is no hard and fast rule. Thank God, we are not Protestants with their idiotic legalisms.

charism of infallibility precludes errors

Yes; this is why the pope can act in absence of a consensus, like I said.

you were and making no real distinction btwn the Divine inspiration of Scripture and doctors, prelates (popes or including them) in speaking on faith and morals.

I told you what the distinction is. If you are sensing that to the Catholic mind the Holy Scripture is inseparable from the entire body of the magisterial teaching of the Holy Church, you are correct. This is why reading the scripture while denying the authority of the Church in the interpretation of the scripture is waste of time, and may end up wasting souls.

wonder what constitute "official teaching on many issues

Yes, and that is good. The Church wants us to examine the doctrine, weigh it against others and come to the understanding through our own effort so that the doctrine becomes internalized.

Rome as the police station

Not the Rome I know, -- and you just stated the opposite yourself.

[Karl Spooner]

He just dropped by to say Hi. I don’t see any worship or praying going on. Of course, I am a liar. Can they kick me out of here for that?

[Gamecock]

And for my next trick....

[Elsie]

How DO you guys get ahead of me on these things???

[Elsie]

Ha ha HA!!!

666 posted on Wednesday, April 09, 2014 8:36:43 AM by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)

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[Karl Spooner]

I knew there was something special about you!

[annalex]

I thought 'saints' are in Heaven already??

Saints are in heaven but they have not assumed their bodies yet, excepting Mary the Mother of God. The resurrection of the body occurs at the Second Coming of Christ.

Characteristics of the risen body

All shall rise from the dead in their own, in their entire, and in immortal bodies; but the good shall rise to the resurrection of life, the wicked to the resurrection of Judgment. It would destroy the very idea of resurrection, if the dead were to rise in bodies not their own. Again, the resurrection, like the creation, is to be numbered amongst the principal works of God; hence, as at the creation all things are perfect from the hand of God, so at the resurrection all things must be perfectly restored by the same omnipotent hand. But there is a difference between the earthly and the risen body; for the risen bodies of both saints and sinners shall be invested with immortality. This admirable restoration of nature is the result of the glorious triumph of Christ over death as described in several texts of Sacred Scripture: Isaiah 25:8; Osee, xiii, 14; 1 Corinthians 15:26; Apocalypse 2:4. But while the just shall enjoy an endless felicity in the entirety of their restored members, the wicked "shall seek death, and shall not find it, shall desire to die, and death shall fly from them" (Revelation 9:6).

These three characteristics, identity, entirety, and immortality, will be common to the risen bodies of the just and the wicked. But the bodies of the saints shall be distinguished by four transcendent endowments, often called qualities.

• The first is "impassibility", which shall place them beyond the reach of pain and inconvenience. "It is sown", says the Apostle, "in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption" (1 Corinthians 15:42). The Schoolmen call this quality impassibility', not incorruption, so as to mark it as a peculiarity of the glorified body; the bodies of the damned will be incorruptible indeed, but not impassible; they shall be subject to heat and cold, and all manner of pain.
• The next quality is "brightness", or "glory", by which the bodies of the saints shall shine like the sun. "It is sown in dishonour," says the Apostle, "it shall rise in glory" (1 Corinthians 15:43; cf. Matthew 13:43; 17:2; Philippians 3:21). All the bodies of the saints shall be equally impassible, but they shall be endowed with different degrees of glory. According to St. Paul: "One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, another the glory of the stars. For star differeth from star in glory"'(1 Corinthians 15:41-42).
• The third quality is that of "agility", by which the body shall be freed from its slowness of motion, and endowed with the capability of moving with the utmost facility and quickness wherever the soul pleases. The Apostle says: "It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power" (1 Corinthians 15:43).
• The fourth quality is "subtility", by which the body becomes subject to the absolute dominion of the soul. This is inferred from the words of the Apostle: "It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body" (1 Corinthians 15:44). The body participates in the soul's more perfect and spiritual life to such an extent that it becomes itself like a spirit. We see this quality exemplified in the fact that Christ passed through material objects.

Catholic Encyclopedia, General Resurrection

[af_vet_1981]

I would! I never had a "face-to-face" confession to a priest. Not saying they would refuse to do so if you asked, just that it was NOT the usual way it was done. I believe that was really the gist of what was being discussed. This is yet another example of the hair-trigger reaction and rush to judgment of some RCs here who are ever ready to falsely accuse another Christian of lying - especially one who left the RC religion. You didn't. We know it.

I think the real reason face-to-face confessions are the path less chosen is due to the shame of sin. This is my view of it, not speaking for the Church, so if I err, forgive me. The ability to confess your worst sins to a man committed to serve the LORD Jesus Christ for all his days above all else, who will never betray your confession to his dying day, who is your witness before God and wants you to be saved, who believes in the Scriptural requirements for repentance and forgiveness, who in faith and by faith will pronounce you forgiven according to the Scriptures, is a beautiful grace extended to you.

You are correct in part about the example of a hair trigger reaction to met mom. She was ignorant of the opportunity and did not use the word "liar." She was wrong and only merited instructive correction. The Holy Spirit cannot be pleased with our pettiness. Where you were wrong was to label her a "Christian" and the other faith as the "RC religion." You should name both denominations, if at all, or label both Christian in this case.

[RegulatorCountry]

Right. The point remains that "full of grace" is the historical translation offered by Jerome and it is correct.

Good thing her face wasn't described as "radiant in glory," otherwise the poor woman might've been immortalized in marble with horns like some kind of satyr, as occurred with Moses due to Jerome's historical translation of Exodus.

[Alex Murphy]

I have just made a $250 donation and I will make another $750 donation if anyone can disprove my claim that there is more Scripture in a Catholic Mass than in a protestant service on any Sunday.

FWIW, I love the idea of making this a donation contest. LurkingSince'98, can we get some clarification re your claim, if possible? You indicated Sunday vs Sunday, I believe, so daily mass is out of the contest. Are you saying that more Scripture is read during the mass, or are you saying more Scripture is quoted during the mass? And are you looking for some kind of average of all protestant Sunday worship services, or any congregation, any service, any Sunday? Are we limited to the year it took place? We need to know specifics, so that we can compare apples to apples.

Related threads:
Scripture in the Catholic mass
Lectionary Statistics - How much of the Bible is included in the Lectionary for Mass? (Popquiz!)

Calvin's preaching was of one kind from beginning to end: he preached steadily through book after book of the Bible. He never wavered from this approach to preaching for almost twenty-five years of ministry in St. Peter's church of Geneva - with the exception of a few high festivals and special occasions. "On Sunday he took always the New Testament, except for a few Psalms on Sunday afternoons. During the week . . . it was always the Old Testament". The records show fewer than half a dozen exceptions for the sake of the Christian year. He almost entirely ignored Christmas and Easter in the selection of his text. To give you some idea of the scope of the Calvin's pulpit, he began his series on the book of Acts on August 25, 1549, and ended it in March of 1554. After Acts he went on to the epistles to the Thessalonians (46 sermons), Corinthians (186 sermons), pastorals (86 sermons), Galatians (43 sermons), Ephesians (48 sermons) - till May 1558. Then there is a gap when he is ill. In the spring of 1559 he began the Harmony of the Gospels and was not finished when he died in May, 1564. During the week of that season he preached 159 sermons on Job, 200 on Deuteronomy, 353 on Isaiah, 123 on Genesis and so on.

One of the clearest illustrations that this was a self-conscious choice on Calvin's part was the fact that on Easter Day, 1538, after preaching, he left the pulpit of St. Peter's, banished by the City Council. He returned in September, 1541 - over three years later - and picked up the exposition in the next verse.
-- excerpted from John Piper's The Divine Majesty Of The Word