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Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol
reformation21 ^ | April 2012 | Carl Trueman

Posted on 04/05/2014 5:57:23 AM PDT by Gamecock

Full Title: Pay No Attention to That Man Behind the Curtain! Roman Catholic History and the Emerald City Protocol

In the field of Reformation studies, Professor Brad Gregory is somebody for whom I have immense respect.  Those outside the discipline of history are possibly unaware of the ravages which postmodernism brought in its wake, making all narratives negotiable and fuelling a rise in interest in all manner of trivia and marginal weirdness.  Dr. Gregory is trained in both philosophy and history and has done much to place the self-understanding of human agents back at the centre of historical analysis.  Thus, for those of us interested in the Reformation, he has also played an important role in placing religion back into the discussion.  For that, I and many others owe him a great debt of gratitude.

I therefore find myself in the odd and uncomfortable position of writing a very critical review of his latest book, The Unintended Reformation (Belknap Harvard, 2011). The book itself is undoubtedly well-written and deeply learned, with nearly a third of the text devoted to endnotes.  It is brilliant in its scope and execution, addressing issues of philosophy, politics and economics.  Anyone wanting a panoramic view of the individuals, the institutions and the forces which shaped early modern Europe should read this work. Yet for all of its brilliance, the book does not demonstrate its central thesis, that Protestantism must shoulder most of the responsibility for the various things which Dr. Gregory dislikes about modern Western society, from its exaltation of the scientific paradigm to its consumerism to its secular view of knowledge and even to global warming. I am sympathetic with many of Dr. Gregory's gripes about the world of today; but in naming Protestantism as the primary culprit he engages in a rather arbitrary blame game.

Dr. Gregory's book contains arguments about both metaphysics and what we might call empirical social realities. On the grounds that debates about metaphysics, like games of chess, can be great fun for the participants but less than thrilling for the spectators, I will post my thoughts on that aspect of the book in a separate blog entry. In this article, I will focus on the Papacy, persecution and the role of the printing press.  This piece is more of a medieval jousting tournament than a chess game and will, I trust, provide the audience with better spectator sport.

One final preliminary comment: I am confident that my previous writings on Roman Catholicism and Roman Catholics indicate that I am no reincarnation of a nineteenth century 'No popery!' rabble-rouser. I have always tried to write with respect and forbearance on such matters, to the extent that I have even been berated at times by other, hotter sorts of Protestants for being too pacific. In what follows, however, I am deliberately combative.  This is not because I wish to show disrespect to Dr. Gregory or to his Church or to his beliefs; but he has set the tone by writing a very combative book. I like that. I like writers who believe and care about the big questions of life. But here is the rub: those who write in such a way must allow those who respond to them to believe with equal passion in their chosen cause and to care about it deeply and thus to be equally combative in their rejoinders.

A key part of the book's argument is the apparent anarchy created by the Protestant emphasis on the perspicuity of scripture. In this, Dr. Gregory stands with his Notre Dame colleague, Christian Smith, as seeing this as perhaps the single weakest point of Protestantism. He also rejects any attempt to restrict Protestantism to the major confessional traditions (Reformed, Anglican and Lutheran) as he argues that such a restriction would create an artificial delimitation of Protestant diversity. Instead, he insists on also including those groups which scholars typically call radical reformers (essentially all other non-Roman Christian sects which have their origins in the turn to scripture of the Reformation). This creates a very diverse and indeed chaotic picture of Protestantism such that no unifying doctrinal synthesis is possible as a means of categorizing the whole.  

I wonder if I am alone in finding the more stridently confident comments of some Roman Catholics over the issue of perspicuity to be somewhat tiresome and rather overblown. Perspicuity was, after all, a response to a position that had proved to be a failure: the Papacy.  Thus, to criticize it while proposing nothing better than a return to that which had proved so inadequate is scarcely a compelling argument.

Yes, it is true that Protestant interpretive diversity is an empirical fact; but when it comes to selectivity in historical reading as a means of creating a false impression of stability, Roman Catholic approaches to the Papacy provide some excellent examples of such fallacious method.  The ability to ignore or simply dismiss as irrelevant the empirical facts of papal history is quite an impressive feat of historical and theological selectivity. Thus, as all sides need to face empirical facts and the challenges they raise, here are a few we might want to consider, along with what seem to me (as a Protestant outsider) to be the usual Roman Catholic responses:

Empirical fact: The Papacy as an authoritative institution was not there in the early centuries. 
Never mind.  Put together a doctrine of development whereby Christians - or at least some of them, those of whom we choose to approve in retrospect on the grounds we agree with what they say  - eventually come to see the Pope as uniquely authoritative.  

Empirical fact: The Papacy was corrupt in the later Middle Ages, building its power and status on political antics, forged documents and other similar scams. 
Ignore it, excuse it as a momentary aberration and perhaps, if pressed, even offer a quick apology. Then move swiftly on to assure everyone it is all sorted out now and start talking about John Paul II or Benedict XVI.  Whatever you do, there is no need to allow this fact to have any significance for how one understands the theory of papal power in the abstract or in the present.  

Empirical fact: The Papacy was in such a mess at the beginning of the fifteenth century that it needed a council to decide who of the multiple claimants to Peter's seat was the legitimate pope.  
Again, this was merely a momentary aberration but it has no significance for the understanding of papal authority.  After all, it was so long ago and so far away.

Empirical fact: The church failed (once again) to put its administrative, pastoral, moral and doctrinal house in order at the Fifth Lateran Council at the start of the sixteenth century.  
Forget it.  Emphasise instead the vibrant piety of the late medieval church and then blame the ungodly Protestants for their inexplicable protests and thus for the collapse of the medieval social, political and theological structure of Europe.  

Perhaps it is somewhat aggressive to pose these points in such a blunt form. Again, I intend no disrespect but am simply responding with the same forthrightness with which certain writers speak of Protestantism. The problem here is that the context for the Reformation - the failure of the papal system to reform itself, a failure in itself lethal to notions of papal power and authority - seems to have been forgotten in all of the recent aggressive attacks on scriptural perspicuity.  These are all empirical facts and they are all routinely excused, dismissed or simply ignored by Roman Catholic writers. Perspicuity was not the original problem; it was intended as the answer.   One can believe it to be an incorrect, incoherent, inadequate answer; but then one must come up with something better - not simply act as if shouting the original problem louder will make everything all right. Such an approach to history and theology is what I call the Emerald City protocol: when defending the great and powerful Oz, one must simply pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.  

Given the above empirical facts, the medieval Papacy surely has chronological priority over any of the alleged shortcomings of scriptural perspicuity in the history of abject ecclesiastical and theological disasters. To be fair, Dr. Gregory does acknowledge that 'medieval Christendom' was a failure (p. 365) but in choosing such a term he sidesteps the significance of the events of the late medieval period for papal authority. The failure of medieval Christendom was the failure of the Papacy. To say medieval Christendom failed but then to allow such a statement no real ecclesiastical significance is merely an act of throat-clearing before going after the people, the Protestants, who frankly are in the crosshairs simply because it appears one finds them and their sects distasteful. Again, to be fair, one cannot blame Roman Catholics for disliking Protestants: our very existence bears testimony to Roman Catholicism's failure. But that Roman Catholics who know their history apparently believe the Papacy now works just fine seems as arbitrary and selective a theological and historical move as any confessionally driven restriction of what is and is not legitimate Protestantism.  

As Dr. Gregory brings his narrative up to the present, I will do the same. There are things which can be conveniently ignored by North American Roman Catholic intellectuals because they take place in distant lands. Yet many of these are emblematic of contemporary Roman Catholicism in the wider world. Such, for example, are the bits of the real cross and vials of Jesus' blood which continue to be displayed in certain churches, the cult of Padre Pio and the relics of Anthony of Padua and the like (both of whom edged out Jesus and the Virgin Mary in a poll as to who was the most prayed to figure in Italian Catholicism). We Protestants may appear hopelessly confused to the latest generation of North American Roman Catholic polemicists, but at least my own little group of Presbyterian schismatics does not promote the veneration of mountebank stigmatics or the virtues of snake-oil.

Still, for the sake of argument let us accept the fideistic notion that the events of the later Middle Ages do not shatter the theology underlying the Papacy.  What therefore of Roman Catholic theological unity and papal authority today? That is not too rosy either, I am afraid.  The Roman Catholic Church's teaching on birth control is routinely ignored by vast swathes of the laity with absolute impunity; Roman Catholic politicians have been in the vanguard of liberalizing abortion laws and yet still been welcome at Mass and at high table with church dignitaries; leading theologians cannot agree on exactly what papal infallibility means; and there is not even consensus on the meaning and significance of Vatican II relative to previous church teaching. Such a Church is as chaotic and anarchic as anything Protestantism has thrown up. 

Further, if Dr. Gregory wants to include as part of his general concept of Protestantism any and all sixteenth century lunatics who ever claimed the Bible alone as sole authority and thence to draw conclusions about the plausibility of the perspicuity of scripture, then it seems reasonable to insist in response that discussions of Roman Catholicism include not simply the Newmans, Ratzingers and Wotjylas but also the Kungs, Rahners, Schillebeeckxs and the journalists at the National Catholic Reporter.  And why stop there?  We should also throw in the sedevacantists and Lefebvrists for good measure.  They all claim to be good Roman Catholics and find their unity around the Office of the Pope, after all. Let us not exclude them on the dubious grounds that they do not support our own preconceived conclusions of how papal authority should work.  At least Protestantism has the integrity to wear its chaotic divisions on its sleeve.

Moving on from the issue of authority, we find that Dr. Gregory also argues that religious persecution is a poisonous result of the confessionalisation of Europe into warring religious factions. Certainly, the bloodshed along confessional lines in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries was terrible, but doctrinal disagreements did not begin with the Reformation. The New Testament makes it clear that serious doctrinal conflict existed within the church even during apostolic times (I hope I am allowed, for the sake of argument, to assume that the New Testament is perspicuous enough for me to state that with a degree of confidence); and the link between church and state which provided the context for bloodshed over matters of theological deviancy was established from at least the time of Priscillian in the late fourth century. It was hardly a Protestant or even a Reformation innovation.

When it comes to the empirical facts of Catholic persecution, Dr. Gregory only mentions the Inquisition twice. That is remarkably light coverage given its rather stellar track record in all that embarrassing auto da fe business. Moreover, he mentions it first only in a Reformation/post-Reformation context. Yet Roman Catholic persecution of those considered deviants was not simply or even primarily a response to Reformation Protestantism but a well-established pattern in the Middle Ages. No doubt the Spanish Jews and Muslims, the Cathars, the Albigensians, the Lollards, the Hussites and many other religious deviants living before the establishment of any Protestant state might have wished that their sufferings had received a more substantial role in the narrative and more significance in the general thesis. Sure, Protestantism broke the Roman Catholic monopoly on persecution and thus played a shameful and ignominious part in its escalation; but it did not establish the precedents, legally, culturally or practically.

Finally, the great lacuna in this book is the printing press. Dr. Gregory has, as I noted above, done brilliant work in putting self-understanding back on the historical agenda and thus of grounding the history of ideas in historical realities rather than metaphysical abstractions. The danger with this, however, is that material factors can come to be somewhat neglected. His thesis - that Protestantism shattered the unified nature and coherence of knowledge and paved the way for its secularization - does not take into account the impact of the easy availability of print. The printed book changed everything: it fuelled literacy rates and it expanded the potential for diversity of opinion. I suspect there is a very plausible alternative, or at least supplementary, narrative to the 'Protestantism shattered the unified nature and coherence of knowledge' thesis: the printing press did it because it made impossible the Church's control of the nature, range, flow and availability of knowledge.

Ironically, the printing press is one of the great success stories of pre-Reformation Catholic Europe. One might argue that it was a technological innovation and thus not particularly 'Catholic' in that sense. That is true; but for some years after it was invented it was unclear whether it would be successful enough to replace medieval book production. In fact, its success was significantly helped by the brisk fifteenth century trade in printed breviaries and missals and the indulgences produced to fund war against the Ottomans. In other words, it was the vibrancy of late medieval Catholic piety, of which Dr. Gregory makes much, that ensured the future of the printing press and thereby the shipwrecking of the old, stable forms of knowledge.

The Roman Catholic Church knew the danger presented by the easy transmission of, and access to, knowledge which the printing press provided. That is why it was so assiduous in burning books in the sixteenth century and why the Index of Prohibited Books remained in place until the 1960s. I well remember being amazed when reading the autobiography of the analytic philosopher and one-time priest, Sir Anthony Kenny, that he had had to obtain special permission from the Church to read David Hume for his doctoral research in the 1950s. At the start of the twenty-first century, Rome may present herself as the friend of engaged religious intellectuals in North America but she took an embarrassingly long time even to allow her people free access to the most basic books of modern Western thought. Women in Britain had the vote, Elvis (in my humble opinion) had already done his best work and The Beatles and The Rolling Stones were starting to churn out hits before Roman Catholics were free to read David Hume without specific permission from the Church.   

Of course, Dr. Gregory knows about the Index; but he seems to see it as a response to Protestantism, not as an extension of the Church's typical manner of handling deviation from its central tenets and practices which stretched back well before the Reformation. And therein lies the ironic, tragic, perplexing flaw of this brilliant and learned book: Dr. Gregory sets out to prove that Protestantism is the source of all, or at least many, of the modern world's ills; but what he actually does is demonstrate in painstaking and compelling detail that medieval Catholicism and the Papacy with which it was inextricably bound up were ultimately inadequate to the task which they set - which they claimed! - for themselves.  Reformation Protestantism, if I can use the singular, was one response to this failure, as conciliarism had been a hundred years before.  One can dispute the adequacy of such responses; but only by an act of historical denial can one dispute the fact that it was the Papacy which failed.

Thanks to the death of medieval Christendom and to the havoc caused by the Reformation and beyond, Dr Gregory is today free to believe (or not) that Protestantism is an utter failure.  Thanks to the printing press, he is also free to express this in a public form. Thanks to the modern world which grew as a response to the failure of Roman Catholicism, he is also free to choose his own solution to the problems of modernity without fear of rack or rope. Yet, having said all that, I for one find it strange indeed that someone would choose as the solution that which was actually the problem in the first place.



TOPICS: General Discusssion; History
KEYWORDS: hornetsnest
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To: BlueDragon
there is not any sense of recommendation to pray to "saints" found in that chapter

I agree and I never implied otherwise. The "because" points to the nature of sanctity as a supreme work of God, not to some recommendation in that verse to specifically pray to saints.

Veneration of saints is never directly advised in the Bible, for the simple reason that in order there to be saints in heaven to pray to, a generation of Christian martyrs had to come and obtain martyrdom. That fell outside of the historical scope of the New Testament (with one or two exceptions). We see, however, two harbingers of the veneration of saints: a woman spontaneously venerating Mary and Jesus pointing that there are others likewise worthy of veneration; and the conversation between Jesus and the two Old Testament saints, Moses and Elijah shown to the Apostles at the Transfiguration. Neither episode actually teaches veneration of saints, but it prepares the ground for it to blossom later.

you wish to establish that praying to saints is as God working within a person.

I am sorry. Now and then I take time to give you a good explanation and answer your questions in full, and then I read something like this from you. Where did I say anything similar? I said that praying to a saint simultaneously worships God because it is God Who made the saint. Please tell me you wrote that without thinking, or else do not be surprised if I simply ignore your post, like I ignore some others.

1,301 posted on 04/12/2014 10:45:34 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Gamecock

The Catechism is infallible because the teaching of the Catholic Church on faith in its entirety is infallible. The Catechism merely systematizes the teaching.


1,302 posted on 04/12/2014 10:47:36 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans; daniel1212; BlueDragon; Springfield Reformer; boatbums
why you pinged me

When I respond to any post, I copy, quite mechanically, the visible part of the addressee list in my "Reply To" box. For example, I just copied "; daniel1212; BlueDragon; Springfield Reformer; boatbums" because they appear on your post to me.

Jerome condemned and rejected the apocrypha

Not quite, since he translated them. He did not like tham but that was his opinion overridden by the Church, and in the end he obeyed the Church. That is why he is a saint in heaven.

Are you suggesting that Jerome was inspired to correct a defect in some Apostle's writing?

That the Luke 1:28 translation "gratia plena" is inspired since "κεχαριτωμενη" does not have a direct Latin equivalent. I am aware that Jerome made some mistakes in his translation, but overall it is inspired work, even if not infallible.

1,303 posted on 04/12/2014 10:55:20 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: boatbums; CynicalBear

No it is not; don’t call the Holy Church “whore” and you’ll have a chance to be taken seriously.


1,304 posted on 04/12/2014 10:57:09 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex; daniel1212; BlueDragon; Springfield Reformer; boatbums
Not quite, since he translated them. He did not like tham but that was his opinion overridden by the Church, and in the end he obeyed the Church. That is why he is a saint in heaven.

Actually, Jerome's commentaries on the reason why they are not to be used for the purposes of doctrine were included with translations even up to Trent, approved by Popes. Jerome's view prevailed for centuries, and represents the real consensus of the church, which was, that the apocrypha was to be used for the edification of morals, but not for the purposes of creating doctrine.

When and if a Muslim is saved, he is saved through Jesus Christ only, so don't worry about others.We'll be all Catholic in Heaven.

A blasphemous repetition. A muslim, by definition, does not believe in Jesus Christ, and is therefore damned. The only way a Muslim is saved, is if he ceases to be Muslim and becomes a Christian prior to his death. This is the testimony of all scripture, and cannot be denied.

1,305 posted on 04/12/2014 12:26:00 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: LurkingSince'98; Elsie
so explain the mocking when your are at your own particular judgement....

So how do you know what people are going to have to answer for when standing before Christ?

1,306 posted on 04/12/2014 12:59:08 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: annalex; Elsie
Since the Church is the ONLY way to know Jesus and be saved, the Church often sounds “arrogant”. In fact, she even should.

Proverbs 16:18 Pride goes before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a fall.

Proverbs 3:34 He has no use for conceited people, but shows favor to those who are humble.

James 6:4 But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.”

1,307 posted on 04/12/2014 1:03:49 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: annalex
The knowledge of human dignity and virtue originates exclusively in the Church because Jesus taught the Church first, but of course some of it was adopted by various religious communities outside of it, such as Protestants, Mormons, modern Jews, and the Lodge.

Nonsense.

It began with Jesus. Period.

Catholics need to stop taking credit for the work of God. He will share his glory with no other.

1,308 posted on 04/12/2014 1:08:11 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: annalex

The truths of Scripture.

The Catholic church doesn’t teach many truths.

Most of their teaching does not line up with Scripture.


1,309 posted on 04/12/2014 1:09:13 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith....)
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To: LurkingSince'98

blather


1,310 posted on 04/12/2014 1:45:30 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

Where ya been dude?
We had some good give and take in the past.

I hope all is well with you and family.


1,311 posted on 04/12/2014 1:46:42 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: annalex
Then why are you polluting this thread with inanities?

Did you mean this for Lurkin'?

1,312 posted on 04/12/2014 1:47:32 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: annalex
There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

Now THERE's the teaching we Prots all know and love!!

1,313 posted on 04/12/2014 1:48:16 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: annalex

Thus; circular logic.


1,314 posted on 04/12/2014 1:49:04 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: annalex
The knowledge of human dignity and virtue originates exclusively in the Church because Jesus taught the Church first, but of course some of it was adopted by various religious communities outside of it, such as Protestants, Mormons, modern Jews, and the Lodge.

I'm quite sure that other learned folks would disagree with this statement.

1,315 posted on 04/12/2014 1:50:23 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: boatbums
It is said Martin Luther was crawling on his knees up the stone steps of the Castle church for penance when the verse came to his mind, "The just shall live by his faith." (Habakkuk 2:4). He got off his knees and proceeded to produce his "95 Theses" which began his journey to genuine faith and contributed mightily to the cause of the Reformation.
    I view Martin Luther more critically, holding him personally responsible for most of German antisemitism and significantly responsible for the Thirty Years War.
  1. In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."[1] Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine,"[2] and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".[3] In the first ten sections of the treatise, Luther expounds, at considerable length, upon his views concerning Jews and Judaism and how these compare against Christians and Christianity. Following this exposition, Section XI of the treatise advises Christians to carry out seven remedial actions. These are - to avoid Jewish synagogues and schools and warn people against them; to refuse to let Jews own houses among Christians; for Jewish religious writings to be taken away; for rabbis to be forbidden to preach; to not offer protection for Jews on highways; for usury to be prohibited, and for all silver and gold to be removed, put aside for safekeeping and given back to Jews who truly convert; and to give young, strong Jews flail, axe, spade, spindle, and let them earn their bread in the sweat of their noses.[4] The prevailing scholarly view[5] since the Second World War is that the treatise exercised a major and persistent influence on Germany's attitude toward its Jewish citizens in the centuries between the Reformation and the Holocaust. Four hundred years after it was written, the Nazis displayed On the Jews and Their Lies during Nuremberg rallies, and the city of Nuremberg presented a first edition to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, the newspaper describing it as the most radically antisemitic tract ever published.[6] Against this view, theologian Johannes Wallmann writes that the treatise had no continuity of influence in Germany, and was in fact largely ignored during the 18th and 19th centuries.[7] Hans Hillerbrand argues that to focus on Luther's role in the development of German antisemitism is to underestimate the "larger peculiarities of German history."[8]
  2. Although the Peace of Augsburg created a temporary end to hostilities, it did not resolve the underlying religious conflict, which was made yet more complex by the spread of Calvinism throughout Germany in the years that followed.[15] This added a third major faith to the region, but its position was not recognized in any way by the Augsburg terms, to which only Catholicism and Lutheranism were parties.

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

1,316 posted on 04/12/2014 1:52:07 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: annalex
It is by (not through) Jesus our Savior, Whom you know from the Catholic Church, or not know if you deny the truths of the Catholic Church.

Acts 8:26-39

26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Rise and go toward the south to the road that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” This is a desert place. 27 And he rose and went. And there was an Ethiopian, a eunuch, a court official of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians, who was in charge of all her treasure. He had come to Jerusalem to worship 28 and was returning, seated in his chariot, and he was reading the prophet Isaiah. 29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.” 30 So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?” 31 And he said, “How can I, unless someone guides me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. 32 Now the passage of the Scripture that he was reading was this:

“Like a sheep he was led to the slaughter
    and like a lamb before its shearer is silent,
    so he opens not his mouth.
33 In his humiliation justice was denied him.
    Who can describe his generation?
For his life is taken away from the earth.”

34 And the eunuch said to Philip, “About whom, I ask you, does the prophet say this, about himself or about someone else?” 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. 36 And as they were going along the road they came to some water, and the eunuch said, “See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” 38 And he commanded the chariot to stop, and they both went down into the water, Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him. 39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.


1,317 posted on 04/12/2014 1:55:21 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: annalex
It is by (not through) Jesus our Savior, Whom you know from the Catholic Church, or not know if you deny the truths of the Catholic Church.

I do not deny any truth that the RCC has!

I do, however, deny speculation and guessing.

1,318 posted on 04/12/2014 1:56:31 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: annalex
Often what people mean to say is that one educated about Catholic faith yet clinging to Protestant heresies is in grave danger of perdition.

I've lost my list.

Could you re-post them??

1,319 posted on 04/12/2014 1:57:29 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: annalex
In both these episodes Christ points out that other disciples may also become saints and be venerated alongside Mary.

Funny; I missed yet another lesson.

Could you re-post the Scripture that shows this?

1,320 posted on 04/12/2014 1:59:08 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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