Posted on 03/07/2014 10:14:06 AM PST by matthewrobertolson
Only trusting the Bible without the Church would be like loving "Romeo & Juliet" and hating Shakespeare's explanation of it.
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There is one church.. All who place their faith in Jesus as seen in Scripture are members of that one church.
Have you accepted Jesus alone as your personal Savior?
Saint Gamecock
The point is the Bible is about Christ, why He came, what He did, the Father's plan from before eternity. Christ is given His by the Father, Christ's righteousness covers all of His. One would think that if talking of the church that you would take God's Word for who is saved and how.
All the additional requirements as to what is required to believe before salvation can be yours are and can be answered thusly.
John 20: 30-31. By the inspired Gospel of John, the disciple Jesus loved, the son to Jesus' mother, the Apostle who delivered the visions of heaven contained in Revelation. From that John we can READ that the everything needful to believe for life in Christ's name, is written in John's Gospel.
Despite Jesus' admonition in Matt 11:28-30 about His yoke being easy and His burden light, the Catholic church has seen fit to add numerous other requirements for salvation, coincidentally, none of which are in John's Gospel, Not that being a Christian would be an easy road with no persecution or that Satan and his minions, the world and our own flesh wouldn't interfere, but that the legalism and the burdensome system of works wasn't the way of Christ.
The free grace of God drawing men to Him, the free gift of faith that He grants, the free power to live a life in Christ are all given to men. Salvation has always been all God's work. From the sinless life of Jesus to His death on the cross where it WAS finished for all men. To His resurrection and ascension to the throne, where He rules, where He will judge on the Last Day, where He destroys the enemies of God by His Own Word, where He gathers His sheep to Himself. That is the story of the salvation of the Lord, it really is all about Him.
There is no such thing as an invisible church of believers. Christ started a very visible Church and that is the Catholic Church, whether protestants want to believe it or not.
I like to remind people that Christ did not say “Upon this rock I build my churches.” He said “church” singular. And if you have a problem “take it to the church.” Well, how do you do that if your church is invisible? And if you believe in two churches, a brick-n-mortar one and an invisible one which brick-n-mortar church do you go to when there’s a different one on every block, each happily willing to give you a different answer??
Your Bible does have the Gospel of John in it, doesn't it? Please open to John 20:1923
Appearance to the Disciples.*
19On the evening of that first day of the week,j when the doors were locked, where the disciples* were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
20When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side.* The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.k
21* [Jesus] said to them again,l “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.”
22* And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them,m “Receive the holy Spirit.
23* n Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”
John 21:15-19 -- it is in your Bible isn't it? Why don't you believe these things?
John, chapter 21
Jesus and Peter.*
15When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter,* “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?”* He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.”
16He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.”
17He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” [Jesus] said to him, “Feed my sheep.i
18* Amen, amen, I say to you,j when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.”
19He said this signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when he had said this, he said to him, “Follow me.”k
He did not start the Papist system. There is one church and he rules over it, not some guy in Rome who is as fallible as the next guy.
Correct. But Paul did not go there to establish his authority or to learn for himself the correct answer. He went there because there was not unanimous consent about the relationship Gentiles had to the Law of Moses. Particularly, the question at hand was whether Gentiles had to become Jews (Jewish proselytes) in order to become Christian (which was still considered a sect of Judaism).
This issue was not resolved by a single apostle or even without the input of other leaders such as James. (The James who summed up and penned the answer to this question in Acts was not James the apostle but James the Lord’s brother.)
Peter was instrumental in resolving the dispute by reminding the church in Jerusalem that God had specifically chosen him (by multiple visions) to be the first to deliver the Gospel to the Gentiles. God had already shown by giving them the Holy Spirit in a similar way as on Pentecost that Gentiles could be allowed entry into the Church (officially recognized at their water baptism) without their conversion to Judaism. The idea of Gentiles becoming part of the Church without converting to Judaism was so strange to these men that even after this experience Paul had to publicly reprove Peter for the hypocrisy of him trying to please the Judaisers by refusing to eat with Gentile believers.
My point in using these examples was to underscore that the Catholic doctrine of a “continuous line of succession” is foreign to the scriptures. A lost person can hear directly from Paul or Peter or John or the other apostles and be saved by believing their Gospel message. In some form or fashion this message has to be delivered to the unbeliever in order for it to be heard, but that does not preclude the message taking the form of a printed Bible translation.
The Catholic doctrine takes a Biblical pattern of discipleship which Christ and the apostles used to “train faithful men” who would, in turn, be able to do the same. This pattern does recognize that the church requires leaders but it does not limit God from being able to raise up men to serve him who have never been taught by anyone. Just like John the baptist told the religious leaders not to boast of their heritage because God was able to raise up seed to Abraham from the stones, God is also able to raise up Church leaders wherever and whenever He pleases.
Jesus called His apostles from many walks of life and used them to establish the Church, but He did not require their assistance to save and convert Paul and turn him into the greatest Gospel preacher and Bible expositor the Church would possibly ever see. God instructs and reveals to us the meaning of His word through the indwelling Holy Spirit both directly and indirectly (through Spirit-filled teachers). So even when teachers teach, it is actually the Holy Spirit who reveals the meaning to us.
We further see a pattern of local churches being formed in the New Testament which were able to mature to the point where they did not need outside teaching and leadership, but they were able to follow the pattern which God ordained of setting teachers and other leaders IN the local church rather than above or outside of it.
Matthew 16:17
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.”
Hebrews 5:12
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God...
1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers...
1 John 2:27
But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you...
Who then was the pope of the OT church? Who was Abraham's bishop? Where were the current dogmas of Rome held in the tents of Jacob?
The belief in the promise given in the Garden of the Christ was the mark of the OT believer. Christ the Rock then as now. John 8:57–59a
The body of Christ, the invisible church, the only one that counts.
that is the Catholic Church, whether protestants want to believe it or not.
And it has demonstrated by its opposition to God's word, that it no longer is whether Catholics want to believe it or not.
That's ignorant...The other apostles sent your supposed leader on a mission journey...Guess he wasn't too much of a leader, was he...
The problem with most RC’s is that they confuse the rock as Peter and fail to understand the object of our Lord’s pronouncement was all those to who God the Father had spoken.
Oh, by the way, I described the visible church, not the invisible one.
sure it did...only the Catholic church was there at the time. They edited it, wrote it, copied it (by hand), and preserved it through 2,000 years so that you would have it to enjoy.....say "Thanks Catholics"!!!
Well I would add that the 'keys' given to Peter are no longer used. Peter's keys no longer exist as was given by Christ. Right now Francis is cutting a new set of keys.
Conclusion.*
30
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of [his] disciples that are not written in this book.
31
But these are written that you may [come to] believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that through this belief you may have life in his name.t
You’re right.....this indicates Holy Tradition. That many truths were passed down face to face, person to person and they aren’t necessarily recorded in the Bible.
Where are you getting the faulty information that they keys of the kingdom no longer exist?
Strange. They were given to Peter by Christ. Why wouldn’t they exist in heaven where Peter opens and closes the gate?
Meanwhile in in the past you have shown yourself to be such a poor and refuted apologist that your straw man and other polemics are actually arguments against Rome. But like other RCs, you simply roll on like a papal propaganda machine.
There was a reason for the past papal pronouncement,
“We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication. — Pope Alexander IV (1254-1261) in “Sextus Decretalium”,
and still in force at the time when the (my source) Catholic Encyclopedia was written [http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Religious_Discussions], which adds,
“This law, like all penal laws, must be very narrowly construed. The terms Catholic Faith and dispute have a technical signification. The former term refers to questions purely theological; the latter to disputations more or less formal, and engrossing the attention of the public. But when there is a question of dogmatic or moral theology, every intelligent layman will concede the propriety of leaving the exposition and defence of it to the clergy.” [who themselves needed due authorization]. - www.newadvent.org/cathen/05034a.htm
Likewise,
Quinisext Ecumenical Council, Canon 64: That a layman must not publicly make a speech or teach, thus investing himself with the dignity of a teacher, but, instead, must submit to the ordinance handed down by the Lord, and to open his ear wide to them who have received the grace of teaching ability, and to be taught by them the divine facts thoroughly.
"Do not converse with heretics even for the sake of defending the faith, for fear lest their words instil their poison in your mind". Bl. Isaias Boner of Krakow (Polish, Augustinian priest, theologian, professor of Scripture, d. 1471)
Here, your one line straw man argument is just that, as SS does not reject authority and the need for the teaching office, but as in Scripture, it reject the premise of assured veracity claimed by any such.
III. It belongs to synods and councils, ministerially to determine controversies of faith, and cases of conscience; to set down rules and directions for the better ordering of the public worship of God, and government of his Church; to receive complaints in cases of maladministration, and authoritatively to determine the same; which decrees and determinations, if consonant to the Word of God, are to be received with reverence and submission; not only for their agreement with the Word, but also for the power whereby they are made, as being an ordinance of God appointed thereunto in His Word. — http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/wcf.htm
A belief system in which Scripture was supreme as the assured Word of God and transcendent standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims, as is abundantly evidenced , Matthew.
Thus the church began in dissent from authority, but based upon Scriptural substantiation. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.) And by this it must continue to establish itself.
“And it has demonstrated by its opposition to God’s word, that it no longer is whether Catholics want to believe it or not”
Without the Catholic Church there would be no Bible. You read the Bible because the Catholic Church compiled it, and decided what would be put in that Bible. Not baptists, not methodists, not mormans, not muslims, not pentacostals, but Catholics.
Even the protestant’s great hero Luther said without Catholics there would have been no Bible. A little respect is due.
Wow! Some of those could apply to Pope Frankie!
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