According to Scripture (Sola Scriptura)

http://www.catholic.com ^ | Tim Staples

[NKP_Vet]

"If a teaching isn’t explicit in the Bible, then we don’t accept it as doctrine!" That belief, commonly known as sola scriptura, was a central component of all I believed as a Protestant. This bedrock Protestant teaching claims that Scripture alone is the sole rule of faith and morals for Christians. Diving deeper into its meaning to defend my Protestant faith against Catholicism about twenty years ago, I found that there was no uniform understanding of this teaching among Protestant pastors and no book I could read to get a better understanding of it.

What role does tradition play? How explicit does something have to be in Scripture before it can be called doctrine? Does Scripture tell us what is absolutely essential for us to believe as Christians? How can we determine the canon using sola scriptura? All these questions and more pointed to the central question: Where is sola scriptura itself taught in the Bible?

[Elsie]

She gets ALL pouty if you do NOT use her full ‘screenname’

[Elsie]

Feel free to rebut or refute anything I posted...

If this EVER happens...

...give me a ring.

[Elsie]

as far kissing anyone ring which I don’t have I am not the Pope you are a little confused.

Says the one who is HIGHLY confused.

[Elsie]

as far kissing anyone ring which I don’t have I am not the Pope you are a little confused.

You're going to have to kiss SOMETHING!!!

---

What Joseph Smith Means to Us  (From: various sources )

 

 

 

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."

- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321

 

 

 

 

"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."

- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88

 

 

 

 

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"

- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)

There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"

- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

 

 

 

 

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."

- Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155

 

 

 

 

"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"

- Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670

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They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.

He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.

He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.

As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.

Who has made this so?

Have I?

Have this people?

Have the world?

No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.

If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.

If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.

Can you pass without his inspection?

No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.

In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.

They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?

They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?

Brigham Young,

--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224

[Elsie]

one never has to go out of their way to be rude with they disagree...

Show me in the Book of MORMON where one has to be polite to a minion of a demon?

[Elsie]

isn’t there some scripture you can post that details the temple rites and how they are essential to one’s salvation?

NO!!!

Dammit!

--MormonDude(Now leave us ALONE!!!)

[Elsie]

How funny!

Laugh it up!!

MD was RITE!!!!

[SZonian]

Trust me, you’ll be the 1st to know...

after I pick myself up off the ground.

[Elsie]

Then we’d cue the Hallelujah Chorus.

NOT sung by the fabulous choir based in Salt Lake City!

---

Isaiah 1:10-15

10 Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.

12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.

[CynicalBear]

>> Zechariah 12:10-14 was fulfilled on the day of Christ's crucifixion:<<

That is simply preposterous. Anyone with a modicum of sense can see with their own eyes that “every family” of Israel did not then nor have they since to this very day mourned for Jesus as the Messiah. The vast majority of the Israelite people then as they have done to this day reject Jesus as the Messiah.

[CynicalBear]

>> I am not a preterist<<

You keep denying your views are Preterist yet you site Ken Gentry in your reading material. If anyone wants to understand how the Preterist views of both you and Gentry are in error they can begin by reading this expose on Ken Gentry and Preterism.

http://www.raptureready.com/who/Kenneth_Gentry.html

[af_vet_1981]

Zechariah 12:10-14 was fulfilled on the day of Christ's crucifixion:

You make my point about reformed theology and preterism. As time and mobile connections permit I will explain what I mean by that. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.. The reason that event is recorded in John is not that the day of Jesus' betrayal by some Jews and brutal torture and crucifixion by some wicked Gentile hands fulfilled Zechariah 's prophecy in context on that day, but that for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel foretold by the prophet Zechariah he had to be pierced; John is recording that event as scriptural evidence. Your view lifts only verses 10-14 out of context to assert they were fulfilled on that day, but apparently not the rest ... just to fit a re-formed doctrine that is absolutely dependent on all prophecy being completely fulfilled in 70.

[af_vet_1981]

The "face of the earth" was the Roman Empire:

That view has at least two global problems
1. Since it holds all was finished by 70, it excludes the other human beings alive on this planet from the Gospel and the Scriptures as written and delivered to us by Moses, the Prophets, the scribes, the Jewish Apostles, and all by the Spirit of God. Untenable;
2. and it holds that Jesus did not know the world extended beyond the Roman Empire, or presumably that it was round, inhabited, would be explored, and have the Gospel preached throughout the entire world in the future (oops, I used that word ...). Untenable, the Gospel was for all the world, and I don't know when you were last in Israel but there are a lot of cities there and it is quite inhabited. This generation has not finished the assignment But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Whoever performs this will be persecuted, even martyred.

[Osage Orange]

I like Remington, Winchester, Ruger, and Sig Sauer...myself.

Excellent firm on self defense.

I use them...and recommend them!!

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>http://www.raptureready.com/who/Kenneth_Gentry.html<<<

Come on, Cynical Bear, you can do better than use that goofball site as a reference. “Rapture Ready” ... LOL!

There will be no “pre-trib” rapture. That is modern, new-age, cult doctrine, with no scriptural foundation whatsoever.

This is the last time I address this with you. The term preterist means someone who believes the book of the Revelation has been fulfilled. I don’t believe that, nor does Gentry.

If you would apply yourself to studying the scriptures in a manner where you rely on the scripture to prove the scripture, instead of relying on charlatans like Scofield and the Rapture Ready smear guy, you might be amazed at what you don’t know. I would also recommend praying for guidance and an open heart.

Philip

[CynicalBear]

>> The term preterist means someone who believes the book of the Revelation has been fulfilled. I don’t believe that, nor does Gentry.<<

Let’s let Gentry answer that one when being interviewed. And guess what site it’s on? [http://www.preteristsite.com/docs/gentrypretpost.html]

P: As a "preterist postmillennialist," are you aware of any significant "in house" disagreements among those who share your same overall perspective on eschatology?

G: Basically there are two competing schools of preterist interpretation (excluding the various and constantly mutating heretical hyper-preterist approaches): One school deems Revelation a picture of the Church´s struggles against two early enemies of the church: one religious, the other political, i.e., Judaic Israel and imperial Rome. The other branch sees the focus as concentrating primarily upon Israel, though noting a few places where John steps back for a broader political context and brings in Rome.

P: Shifting to a related topic. Do preterist and non-preterist postmillennialists differ significantly in their reading of Matthew 24? Are there different interpretations of the two "days" even among preterists?

G: Matthew 24 has been subjected to a fairly wide variety of interpretive approaches. Perhaps the more widely endorsed one holds that the Lord more or less jumbles together material on A.D. 70 and the Second Advent, in that A.D. 70 is a microcosmic precursor to the Second Advent. This view makes it difficult to sort out the verses in regard to which event the particular verses focus on. Among evangelical preterists two basic positions prevail: that 24:4-34 focus on A.D. 70 and 24:36ff focus on the Second Advent. The other view holds that all of Matthew 24 deals with A.D. 70.

Another site [http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/g/gentry-kenneth.html]

Dr. Kenneth L. Gentry - Postmillennialist / Reconstructionist Partial Preterist

Would be classified "Historical Preterist" due to Olivet Discourse "transition text" at Matthew 24:36, but qualifies as "Modern Preterist" due to his view that the book of Revelation has been fulfilled up to chapter 19.

Gentry identifies himself as a preterist and is identified so on the preterist sites. The only thing he disagrees with is hyper preterism. Don’t try to claim that either Gentry or you are not preterists again.

[CynicalBear]

See my post 896. Gentry identifies himself as a preterist.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>> That is simply preposterous. Anyone with a modicum of sense can see with their own eyes that “every family” of Israel did not then nor have they since to this very day mourned for Jesus as the Messiah. The vast majority of the Israelite people then as they have done to this day reject Jesus as the Messiah. . . .blah, blah, blah.<<<

Funny, but John said it was fulfilled? I guess CynicalBear knows something John didn't. Of course, John was merely a disciple.

That kind of literal translation of spiritual prophecy is why Christ and his apostles were killed. Even though John clearly said the prophecy was fulfilled, dispensationalists somehow find a way to explain it away. Even when made aware that the chapter is bracketed with prophecies that were fulfilled with 1) Judas (Zech 11:11-12,) and 2) the scattering of the disciples after Jesus was crucified (Zech 13:7), dispensationalist still become obnoxiously self-righteous when someone dares contradict their new-age doctrine: the doctrine made famous by the convicted felon and con-man, Brother Cyrus Ingerson Scofield:

http://poweredbychrist.homestead.com/files/cyrus/scofield.htm

These is the same ideology that produced the buffoonish John Hagee, who makes such hateful statements as,

"Two-thirds of [Jews] are going to die and that one-third that is left at the end is going to finally come to the end of themselves.”

That is Brother Hagee's definition of a pep talk.

"I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption" (Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1988).

Except that only those who come to Christ will be saved.

"I'm not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith... In fact, trying to convert Jews is a waste of time. Jews already have a covenant with God and that has never been replaced by Christianity." (Houston Chronicle, April 30, 1988, sec, 6, pg. 1).

So much for the Great Commission, and Christ fulfilling the old covenant as Abraham's seed of the promise.

Understand this point: three consecutive chapters in Zechariah refer to Christ's betrayal, crucifixion, and the scattering of his disciples, respectively. Recall this verse?

"And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered." (Mark 14:27 KJV)

This is the prophecy that was fulfilled:

"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the Lord of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones." (Zec 13:7 KJV)

Recall this?

"And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with [Judas] for thirty pieces of silver." (Mat 26:15 KJV)

This is the prophecy that was fulfilled:

"And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver" (Zech 11:12)

Philip

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>Since it holds all was finished by 70, it excludes the other human beings alive on this planet from the Gospel and the Scriptures as written and delivered to us by Moses, the Prophets, the scribes, the Jewish Apostles, and all by the Spirit of God. Untenable;<<<

I can't decipher. Please restate.

>>>and it holds that Jesus did not know the world extended beyond the Roman Empire, or presumably that it was round, inhabited, would be explored, and have the Gospel preached throughout the entire world in the future (oops, I used that word ...). Untenable, the Gospel was for all the world, and I don't know when you were last in Israel but there are a lot of cities there and it is quite inhabited. <<<

That is a nice opinion you have, but it is scripturally unsound, or, if you prefer, exegetically untenable (Exegesis is when a person interprets a text based solely on what it says, as opposed to reading into it what is not there, or what he wants to be there)

The scripture determines the "bounds of the world" in that day, not the Encyclopedia Britannica; and it is mentioned many times, in one manner or another, that the populated world was considered to be the Roman Empire. Do you think the Emperor was taxing Argentina in order to fulfill this verse:

"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed." (Luke 2:1 KJV)

Do you think Paul was referring to Canada and Australia when he wrote these verses? Or do you think he was just a lousy writer who could not keep the "tense" in the proper time perspective?

"First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world." (Rom 1:8 KJV)

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." (Rom 10:17-18 KJV)

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Col 1:23 KJV)

>>>This generation has not finished the assignment But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Whoever performs this will be persecuted, even martyred.<<<

I doubt the apostles would be pleased to find out their persecutions, tortures and murders didn't count.

Philip

[CynicalBear]

A little more information on you buddy Gentry and his friends.

Kenneth Gentry [http://www.theopedia.com/Kenneth_Gentry]

Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr. (b. 1950) is a pastor and theologian ordained in the Reformed Presbyterian Church, General Assembly. He has written numerous books and articles, most notably on preterism and postmillennialism in eschatology, and the Book of Revelation. He has also written on ethics, particularly from a theonomist view. Gentry is a graduate of Tennessee Temple University (BA), Reformed Theological Seminary (MDiv), and Whitefield Theological Seminary (ThM, ThD).

Theonomy – aka Christian Reconstructionism [http://carm.org/christian-reconstructionism-theonomy]

Recent advocates are Gary North, Gary DeMar, Kenneth Gentry, Larry Pratt, Greg Bahnsen.

Teachings:
Christian Reconstructionism (also known as theonomy) is a highly controversial movement within some conservative Christian circles. It maintains that the world should be brought under (reconstructed) the lordship of Jesus Christ in all areas: social, moral, political, judicial, military, family, art, education, music, etc. Christian Reconstructionism advocates the restoration of Old Testament civil and moral laws in order to reconstruct present American society into an Old Testament type Mosaic form and that the three main areas of society - family, church, government - should all be biblically modeled, the Bible being the sole standard. This would include severe punishments for law breakers. Some Christian reconstructionists would advocate death for adulterers, abortionists, idolaters, murderers, homosexuals, rapists, etc.

Reconstructionts maintain a strong belief that the Bible is true and inerrant. Generally postmillennial 'that through the preaching and teaching of the gospel, the world will be converted to Christianity and that Christ will return after a period of time after the world is converted.

Christian reconstructionism advocates removing prisons and and replacing them with the practice of restoration of damages done. Christians are the new chosen people of God, replacing national Israel. Other religious systems would be strongly resisted.

There is a debate among some Christian reconstructionists on whether or not slavery should be reinstituted; not all are in agreement.

Opposes evolution. Teaches Jesus will physically return to Israel.

Christian reconstructionism began with the publication of the Institute of Biblical Law by R. J. Rushdoony in 1973. This 800 page work expounded on the 10 Commandments. After Rushdoony's death in 2001, his son-in-law Gary North took the reins and has become a prolific writer, further advocating Christian Reconstructionism.

I’ve got lot’s of stuff on Gentry’s buddy Rushdoony. Of course old scary Gary North Rushdoony’s son in law was gem also. Want me to go on?