According to Scripture (Sola Scriptura)

http://www.catholic.com ^ | Tim Staples

[NKP_Vet]

"If a teaching isn’t explicit in the Bible, then we don’t accept it as doctrine!" That belief, commonly known as sola scriptura, was a central component of all I believed as a Protestant. This bedrock Protestant teaching claims that Scripture alone is the sole rule of faith and morals for Christians. Diving deeper into its meaning to defend my Protestant faith against Catholicism about twenty years ago, I found that there was no uniform understanding of this teaching among Protestant pastors and no book I could read to get a better understanding of it.

What role does tradition play? How explicit does something have to be in Scripture before it can be called doctrine? Does Scripture tell us what is absolutely essential for us to believe as Christians? How can we determine the canon using sola scriptura? All these questions and more pointed to the central question: Where is sola scriptura itself taught in the Bible?

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>It is only due to preterism's need to have a 70 date that they must try to force the prophecies to fit it.<<<

I am not a preterist, but I know enough about it to know that you have, unfortunately, bought into the lie spread by the dual-covenant crowd. The only reason I believe in a pre-70 A.D. date is this: I can read English. Same for preterists. The many new converts to postmillennialism and preterism, as I understand it, can best be explained by those disillusioned with the many false prophets that have sprung up within the dispensational ranks. After leaving them behind in a search for greener pastures, some begin to take a literal approach to the New Testament, rather than the old, and their eyes are opened. It is really as simple as that. I would not read too much into it.

" And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you:" (Mark 13:2-5)

"Verily I say unto you [, my disciples,] that this [your] generation shall not pass, till all these things be done." (Mark 13:30)

It either means Jesus was prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem during the lifetime of his disciples, or it means anything and everything. The Evangelical Industrial Complex prefers the latter because, without it, and some wildly imaginative authors, their book sales would be in the toilet. So do the mega-church and TV evangelists. Postmillennial preaching is rather dull, and under that doctrine it hard to scare the old ladies into giving up their last mite.

>>>As for the Gentiles killed throughout WWII and its aftermath, the numbers were horrible but the prophecy in question was for Israel. <<<

I don't recall mentioning them. I was referring to all the murders by the Bolsheviks and Mao.

>>>I'm sure many thought WWII and the Holocaust of the Jews, 6 million or more systematically slaughtered just for being physically descended from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, including Jewish Christians like yourself, was the worst so far, but the end was not yet.<<<

Yet, Hitler's driver was half-Jewish. As a World War II buff for forty years, the internet proved to be a real eye-opener. Admittedly, I was a Pacific War fanatic for most of that time, since I served in the Pacific; so I was late to the European theatre. But since the internet came along, I have ran across some remarkable video series, including one on his personal assistants. There is also this one titled, "Nazi Collaborators - the Jews Who Fought for Hitler:"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l379T4484jY

Some things do not make any sense, do they?

>>>Does it really make sense to you that schismatics who rebelled against the Catholic Church in the 16th Century to reform or "redo" the faith once delivered to the saints would then produce a Reformed Theology than keeps reforming itself with new "doctors" into a Preterist Theology that says "I used to love her, but it's all over now, over now?"<<<

The word "Reformed" is best defined as, "those who broke the chains of the catholic tyrants."

>>>At least Calvin and Gentry have not called themselves Prophet like Joseph Smith, and their books are not yet treated as scripture although I wonder sometimes.<<<

You can primarily thank the Jesuit Emmanuel Lacunza, a Francisco Ribera protégé, for that. John Nelson Darby was a Lacunza protégé, as was William Miller, the founder of the Millerites, which later branched into the Jehovah's Witnesses and the Seventh-Day Adventists. Of course, Darby is credited with being the founder of Dispensationalism, which has similar end-times doctrine to that of the Millerites because of Lacunza. Francisco Ribera, the originator, was a Jesuit and counter-reformer, who tricked many into accepting his new, non-biblical doctrine, thus taking the heat off the pope.

It is all a big scam.

Philip

[restornu]

Hey, that’s alright, I’m still waiting for restornu to show me the scriptural reference(s) outlining the temple rites and how they are essential for salvation (not exaltation)...

***

I never said that I would outline the rite don’t get carried away with yourself...

and never said how they are essential for salvation all are saved my friend where one will reside is the question??

In one of the 3 degrees of glory or outer darkness...

John 14:2

In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

What I was looking for was why it is important and seems you really are not that serious.

[restornu]

>>So believe what you want CB, but no atonement took place in the Garden of Eden.<<
Atonement? When did atonement insert itself into this conversation? We were talking about the lifeblood of the flesh not the blood of atonement.

***

Lets not get side track you brought in Lev 17 verse on flesh and blood, atonement etc to my question

You original question was...

“Was Adam flesh and blood prior to sinning?”

I said no he was Flesh and Bone he was still Pre Mortal but after they were usher out of the garden they were cursed and subject to the temporal world.

Life blood is needed for this kingdom we live in, Adam and Eve were pre-mortal but after par taking of the tree of good and evil, they could longer remain in the garden and so fell and became Mortal subject to death.

after some debate I asked

When you fine blood in Adam, when Adam was in the Garden of Eden show me?

This was your reply

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Gen 2 Immortal

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Here they were still immortal

The Lord Creates woman

Gen 2 (became mortal and they surely will die)

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

This is where they need to leave that garden because of the state they are in if the eat from the tree of(enteral)life
they would have remain in that state there would have been no procreation. They needed to leave the garden to fulfill the mission.

first Adam
There were two deaths one of immortality and the second death is the separation of body and soul.

second Adam is Jesus Christ who will after we are tried tested able to return to one of the places the Lord has prepared for us.

Gen 3
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

[CynicalBear]

With all due respect I really don’t want to hear any more of the LDS fairy tales. You go right ahead and believe that garbage. It’s contrary to the true word of God. It’s made up by a adulterous murderer who construed a self glorifying myth which is an abomination to the one true God and has been called accursed.

[SZonian]

Why then, is it essential to promote and conduct proxy baptisms for the dead in the mormon temples if the rituals aren’t essential for salvation? According to mormon teachings, baptisms for the dead must be accomplished so that they can be “taught” the gospel while in the spirit prison, giving them a second chance at salvation.

This is why so much emphasis on geneaology, tithing and temple recommends is placed on the members. The geneaology thing is even spoken of in the Bible...says not to, you don’t have the time to waste on the dead...their judgement is coming, regardless of what you may try to do here on earth for them.

So what you’re saying then is that since the LdS temple rites don’t exist in any scripture that they are man made rituals...traditions of men...

One of the primary reasons I left mormonism...

[restornu]

Plural marriage is not adultery and Joseph was never a Murderer.

and you have not proven there was flesh and blood in the garden of Eden

And I thank you for at least trying to be respectful

[restornu]

I was going to try again to answer some of your questions but you are not serious, and show no respect toward my faith with lower case and spin and sarcasm.

It also shows no self-respect how one treat others, one does not have to agree, to show that they are well-mannered.

I shared what I could with many instead of saying thank you it is not for me, it ended with incrimination...

Only one I believed had the spirit of the Lord with him and was kind enough to be thoughtful.

[ejonesie22]

I will have to check with the officials...

[ejonesie22]

See you are still the same Resty...

[SZonian]

"...spin and sarcasm"

Please, by all means, point it out...

You "shared" nothing related to the question...not one thing...it was either ignored or deflected into some other tangent.

Feel free to rebut or refute anything I posted, I look forward to your posting of scriptural references that detail your support of said rites. Feel free to show scriptural references laying out the exact details of the who, what, when, how and why, of the proxy baptisms for the dead so that they have a "second chance" at salvation..

I'm not inclined nor required to kiss anyone's ring when it comes to exposing false teachings that are firmly grounded in the traditions of men. And getting your dander up because I don't capitalize a word is just more chaff in the wind, nothing of value or merit, just obfuscation and deflection.

[PhilipFreneau]

>>>No, no, no, the unbroken chain from the Apostles through their fathered disciples testifies that all the prophecy has not been fulfilled. The martyrs in the next three centuries were still waiting for the imminent return of the LORD Jesus Christ, the glorious Messiah, who said And I will poor upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. <<<

Zechariah 12:10-14 was fulfilled on the day of Christ's crucifixion:

"Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced." (John 19:32-37 KJV)

"In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon" (Zechariah 12:11)

"And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him." (Luke 23:27 KJV)

Great multitudes, of thousands upon thousands, had come to Christ during his ministry, and they followed him everywhere:

"When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him." (Mat 8:1 KJV)

You will find references to the multitudes throughout the gospels. Would they not be at his crucifixion, in mourning?

>>>God is going to require a day of repentance from national Israel, every Jew who survives the Time of Jacob's Trouble, and then, and only then, all Israel will be saved. <<<

Then why the following in the days of Christ? Was it really necessary?

"… I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Mat 15:24 KJV)

"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." (John 10:14-16 KJV)

"These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give." (Mat 10:5-8 KJV)

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." (Mat 10:22-23 KJV)

There is that pesky "in your lifetime" prediction by Jesus. And was that not Jesus fulfilling this prophecy?

"And they were scattered, because there is no shepherd: and they became meat to all the beasts of the field, when they were scattered. My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them." (Eze 34:5-6 KJV)

"For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out." (Eze 34:11 KJV)

"I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment." (Eze 34:16 KJV)

The "face of the earth" was the Roman Empire:

"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be taxed." (Luke 2:1 KJV)

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." (Mark 16:15 KJV)

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." (Rom 10:17-18 KJV)

"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;" (Col 1:23 KJV)

Since Jesus sent his disciples to gather his lost sheep, and only a remnant was saved, then the "all Israel," that Paul spoke of, is simply another way of saying, "Jesus gathered the lost sheep from Judah and Israel into one fold:"

"And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, … And he shall... assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isa 11:10-12 KJV)

And at the first resurrection, in AD 70, is when he gathered them from the four corners of the earth, and beyond:

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:27 KJV)

Note he also gathers some from heaven. The prophets, along with the apostles, serve as foundations of the holy temple, and of course he mentioned the patriarchs. Therefore, the 144,000 who were the firstfruits, were comprised of the holy and blameless elect (the remnant) and the holy men of old. They are the foundation, servants, and priests to the high priest of my faith, and are all Israel: the Chosen People. There are no other chosen people: only the faithful remnant that Christ resurrected to serve him.

Therefore, using today's terminology, Christianity is a Jewish religion. But it contains all the tribes of Israel, not just Benjamin and Judah, which were the Jews. More exact, Christianity is the religion of the house of Jacob.

>>>Only our Father in heaven knows the day and hour, and when it happens everyone will know.<<<

But one could know the week, month, year, etc..

>>>There will be no doubt, no more books from Gentry, no more reforming theology, just an overflowing of riches from the national redemption of Israel, and the certain judgment and rule of our Messiah on this earth, and the next new one.<<<

It has already happened. We simply have to stop and smell the roses, and stop feeding the devil. The healing stream that flows from calvary's mountain has done a lot of marvellous things; but we are so spoiled we do not even realize it.

Philip

[restornu]

I’m not inclined nor required to kiss anyone’s ring when it comes to exposing false teachings that are firmly grounded in the traditions of men.

***

That is just it firmly grounded in the traditions of men
and not the Creator!

as far kissing anyone ring which I don’t have I am not the Pope you are a little confused.

one never has to go out of their way to be rude with they disagree...

This isn’t politics!

These are spiritual matters and operate on a different ground but the children of the world are unable to distinguished between the two.

[SZonian]

More strawmen...isn’t there some scripture you can post that details the temple rites and how they are essential to one’s salvation?

How about the proxy baptisms for the dead that occurs in the LdS temples and how that supposedly gets them a “second chance” to accept the “gospel” and be saved?

[BlueDragon]

Is it not evident we are dealing with a STRONG DELUSION here?

All laid out for any who may care to examine it.

Inter-locking misunderstandings, dependent one upon another, supported by "flesh & bone" curiously lacking blood.

the walkers...they are on your doorstep wearing smiles, ringing your doorbell...

As Bill the Cat would say

[restornu]

More strawmen...isn’t there some scripture you can post that details the temple rites and how they are essential to one’s salvation?

[Elsie]

In one of the 3 degrees of glory or outer darkness...

Just think:

E & R

Together...

Forever..

On Level Two!

[Elsie]

and you have not proven there was flesh and blood in the garden of Eden

Mormonism has never proven that there ISN'T 'flesh and blood' in the Elements!

[Elsie]

Plural marriage is not adultery and Joseph was never a Murderer.

Yet you fail to accept it.

You are DAMNED!

B.Y. said so!

[Elsie]

I was going to try again to answer some of your questions but you are not serious, and show no respect toward my faith with lower case and spin and sarcasm.

Boo Hoo...

---

You, restornu, have YET to denounce the words of your leaders.

Anyone reading this thread will have to accept the fact that you AGREE with them!

---

---

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

 

 

 

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

 

 

 

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

 

 

 

Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses

, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

 

 

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

 

 

 

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

 

 

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

 

 

 

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

 

 

 

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

 

 

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

[Elsie]

I was going to try again to answer some of your questions but you are not serious, and show no respect toward my faith with lower case and spin and sarcasm.