Posted on 01/23/2014 9:29:40 PM PST by NKP_Vet
1. Best One-Sentence Summary: I am convinced that the Catholic Church conforms much more closely to all of the biblical data, offers the only coherent view of the history of Christianity (i.e., Christian, apostolic Tradition), and possesses the most profound and sublime Christian morality, spirituality, social ethic, and philosophy.
2. Alternate: I am a Catholic because I sincerely believe, by virtue of much cumulative evidence, that Catholicism is true, and that the Catholic Church is the visible Church divinely-established by our Lord Jesus, against which the gates of hell cannot and will not prevail (Mt 16:18), thereby possessing an authority to which I feel bound in Christian duty to submit.
3. 2nd Alternate: I left Protestantism because it was seriously deficient in its interpretation of the Bible (e.g., "faith alone" and many other "Catholic" doctrines - see evidences below), inconsistently selective in its espousal of various Catholic Traditions (e.g., the Canon of the Bible), inadequate in its ecclesiology, lacking a sensible view of Christian history (e.g., "Scripture alone"), compromised morally (e.g., contraception, divorce), and unbiblically schismatic, anarchical, and relativistic. I don't therefore believe that Protestantism is all bad (not by a long shot), but these are some of the major deficiencies I eventually saw as fatal to the "theory" of Protestantism, over against Catholicism. All Catholics must regard baptized, Nicene, Chalcedonian Protestants as Christians.
4. Catholicism isn't formally divided and sectarian (Jn 17:20-23; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10-13).
5. Catholic unity makes Christianity and Jesus more believable to the world (Jn 17:23).
6. Catholicism, because of its unified, complete, fully supernatural Christian vision, mitigates against secularization and humanism.
7. Catholicism avoids an unbiblical individualism which undermines Christian community (e.g., 1 Cor 12:25-26).
8. Catholicism avoids theological relativism, by means of dogmatic certainty and the centrality of the papacy.
(Excerpt) Read more at ourcatholicfaith.org ...
“There are no scriptures relating works with Grace other than the Finished Work of Christ Jesus.”
False. 1 Peter 3:21 clearly tells us that Baptism saves. It saves because of grace. Acts 22:16 tells us that Paul’s sins were washed away in Baptism. That can only be done with grace.
“I noticed you snuck in all the key words of faith, Grace and works then tagged James 2:24 in there.”
I snuck in nothing. I simply posted the truth.
Jesus Christ sent His disciples out to preach the Gospel and for those that believed we see were baptized and in Acts it tells us were added to their numbers. The Bride is made up of those added.
Perhaps you are Mountain Dew and I am Dr. Pepper. You fizz with the hermeneutic of church and tradition and I fizz with the hermeneutic of Gospel. You believe salvation comes from the church, where I believe salvation comes from the Gospel.
In all reality yes. That is something our FRoman Catholic friends miss.
My post was obviously hyperbole as all have sinned.
Ezek 3:1 Moreover he said unto me, Son of man, eat that thou findest; eat this scroll, and go speak unto the house of Israel. 2 So I opened my mouth, and he caused me to eat that scroll. 3 And he said unto me, Son of man, cause thy belly to eat, and fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness.
Jer 15:16 Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.
Revelation 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
Literally eating those scrolls could bet expensive having to reproduce them over and over also. It would be better if Catholics understood what scripture really says.
1 Corinthians 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Perhaps they don’t understand the spiritual aspect and meaning?
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
“We are saved by grace alone. You either accept that or you believe in another gospel than that taught by Christ and the New Testament church.”
Given the primacy Peter is given as the first pope, I expected to see his own epistles quoted here by Catholics. Given his personality as we see in the Gospels and Acts, it is no wonder Peter knew how to captivate his listening audience up front and early. As we see in 1 Peter 1:
1 Peter 1:1-25 KJV
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Catholics can keep trying to take credit all they want but it doesn’t make it so. The faith that saves comes from God who graciously gives us that faith.
What do you define as the keys to the kingdom? Did not Peter declare something very important earlier in the passage?
I frequently go out to Catholic websites. I understand spin and they're on the fast cycle.
Please answer me this one question: Do you believe that Muslims can be saved by God apart from believing in Christ? Do you believe the early church fathers believed what you believe?
OK...that's two questions.
I don't expect an answer because I've asked this several times now in various ways to other Catholics here and received no answer. But one would think (hope) that it would make a person rather nervous to be out of line with the teachings of the early fathers.
This is not doctrinal development. This is heresy. But then, I suppose that is what heretics call heresy when you think about it. Surprisingly enough I did a Google on "doctrinal development joseph smith" and, sure enough, there it is. Joseph Smith was just doing doctrinal development.
Nothing surprises me any more.
“Catholics are majority pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, democrat voters”
You sound like a broke record. Obama 50% Romney 48%.
If you consider that a hell of a spread for Obama you can’t count. Take away some of the illegal Mexicans that voted for him, who couldn’t tell you the first thing about what the Catholic Church teaches and Romney would have carried the vote.
WHITE CATHOLICS (Mass attending) 59% for ROMNEY
40% for OBAMA.
Do you have any idea how bad Romney would have lost if not for 59% of WHITE Catholics voting for him. It’s scary.
I don’t know how many millions 59% represents, but it’s millions and millions.
Protestant Bush won the Catholic vote as recent as 2004. And Morman Mitt Romney basically tied for it in 2012.
But in your mind the democrats have a lock on the “Catholic” vote for the rest of the ages.
And you can bet your bottom dollar that all those hispanics that voted for Obama are not pro-abortion, and are not pro-homo “marriage”. Most hispanics are family-oriented and socially conservative. But they didn’t give social issues a thought when they voted for Obama. They voted for the person who promised them more and who was going to let the rest of their family come into the states and start getting handouts from the government.
“TO be deep in Scripture is to cease to be Catholic.”
That’s going to leave a mark:)
#1 is only true if you throw out the bible, which makes it a pretty weird statement.
Only way a Muslim be saved is to totally be ignorant of the Christian faith and at the same time has lived his life according to the beatitudes, which cut through all faiths.
If a Muslim is exposed to Christianity and refuses to accept the truth he’s out of luck.
FOTFLOL!!!
Bondage to works and denominations is never a gift from God.
The gifts from God are salvation by grace through faith in Christ (Eph 2:8-9), the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38), righteousness (Romans 5:17), eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord (Romans 6:23), the gifts of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12, Romans 12), God’s grace (Eph 3:7).
No mention of the Catholic church being a gift of God in Scripture and some *archbishop*’s opinion doesn’t count for much.
Grace saves us.
“, which cut through all faiths”
No they don’t.
besides don’t Catholics believe a death-bed conversion works just as well?
Blew up hundreds for Allah and repents just before pulling the pin out, he’s saved... right??
//sarcasm
“Perhaps you are Mountain Dew and I am Dr. Pepper. You fizz with the hermeneutic of church and tradition and I fizz with the hermeneutic of Gospel. You believe salvation comes from the church, where I believe salvation comes from the Gospel.”
Salvation comes from Christ. Christ uses the Church to give grace to us. You can’t have the gospel without the Church, and you can’t have the Church without the gospel. They always go together.
Precisely. Hit and run and hide.
This article has to be the worst attempt at apologetics yet seen on FR.
“As Newman said, and he certainly knew more about Church History than you ever could,”
THIS Newman?
“...in all cases the immediate motive in the mind of a Catholic for his reception of them is, not that they are proved to him by Reason or by History, but because Revelation has declared them by means of that high ecclesiastical Magisterium which is their legitimate exponent.” — John Henry Newman, “A Letter Addressed to the Duke of Norfolk on Occasion of Mr. Gladstone’s Recent Expostulation.” 8. The Vatican Council http://www.newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/gladstone/section8.html
Is it history that you pretend to know? Or is it history “expounded” by people who you presume are God’s mouthpiece? It’s a really important distinction.
But, let’s run an experiment to see if, like one of you said (and this goes for all the Catholics I’m pinging), that these doctrines of yours really go back “all the way to the beginning.”
Let’s start with this:
From the Catholic catechism:
851 “... God “desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”;(1 Tim 2:4) that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the prompting of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God’s universal plan of salvation...”
This seems like a neat little and fair assertion, at first glance anyway. But, is this what has always been taught and has always been held universally? The CCC cites 1 Tim 2:4, which states:
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
And they interpret this as meaning that God “wills” to save all mankind, that is, every single individual, head for head. Now, let’s compare this to Augustine’s commentary on this same verse:
“Who will have all men to be saved;” not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will (for how, then, explain the fact that He was unwilling to work miracles in the presence of some who, He said, would have repented if He had worked them?), but that we are to understand by “all men,” the human race in all its varieties of rank and circumstances,—kings, subjects; noble, plebeian, high, low, learned, and unlearned; the sound in body, the feeble, the clever, the dull, the foolish, the rich, the poor, and those of middling circumstances; males, females, infants, boys, youths; young, middle-aged, and old men; of every tongue, of every fashion, of all arts, of all professions, with all the innumerable differences of will and conscience, and whatever else there is that makes a distinction among men. For which of all these classes is there out of which God does not will that men should be saved in all nations through His only-begotten Son, our Lord, and therefore does save them; for the Omnipotent cannot will in vain, whatsoever He may will? Now the apostle had enjoined that prayers should be made for all men, and had especially added, “For kings, and for all that are in authority,” who might be supposed, in the pride and pomp of worldly station, to shrink from the humility of the Christian faith. Then saying, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,” that is, that prayers should be made for such as these, he immediately adds, as if to remove any ground of despair, “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” [I Tim. 2:1-4]. God, then, in His great condescension has judged it good to grant to the prayers of the humble the salvation of the exalted; and assuredly we have many examples of this. Our Lord, too, makes use of the same mode of speech in the Gospel, when He says to the Pharisees: “Ye tithe mint, and rue, and every herb” [Luke 11:42]. For the Pharisees did not tithe what belonged to others, nor all the herbs of all the inhabitants of other lands. As, then, in this place we must understand by “every herb,” every kind of herbs, so in the former passage we may understand by “all men,” every sort of men. And we may interpret it in any other way we please, so long as we are not compelled to believe that the omnipotent God has willed anything to be done which was not done: for setting aside all ambiguities, if “He hath done all that He pleased in heaven and in earth” [Ps. 115:3]. as the psalmist sings of Him, He certainly did not will to do anything that He hath not done.” (Augustine, Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 103. Interpretation of the Expression in I Tim. 2:4: “Who Will Have All Men to Be Saved”.)
Compare: CCC — All men, of every individual
Augustine— “All men,” that is, every sort of man.
Let’s keep going!
Cyril of Jerusalem on Sola Scriptura:
“Have thou ever in your mind this seal, which for the present has been lightly touched in my discourse, by way of summary, but shall be stated, should the Lord permit, to the best of my power with the proof from the Scriptures. For concerning the divine and holy mysteries of the Faith, not even a casual statement must be delivered without the Holy Scriptures; nor must we be drawn aside by mere plausibility and artifices of speech. Even to me, who tell you these things, give not absolute credence, unless thou receive the proof of the things which I announce from the Divine Scriptures. For this salvation which we believe depends not on ingenious reasoning , but on demonstration of the Holy Scriptures.” (Cyril of Jerusalem, Cat. Lecture 4, Ch. 17)
Augustine on irresistible grace, final perseverance, limited atonement, and whatever else I missed which he touches on here:
“But of such as these [the Elect] none perishes, because of all that the Father has given Him, He will lose none. John 6:39 Whoever, therefore, is of these does not perish at all; nor was any who perishes ever of these. For which reason it is said, They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us. John 2:19”. (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints)
“I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling.” (Augustine, On the Perseverance of the Saints)
“And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for “He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.” And when the apostle said this, he was illustrating the grace of God, in connection with which he had just spoken of the twins in the womb of Rebecca, who “being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calls, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.” And in reference to this matter he quotes another prophetic testimony: “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” But perceiving how what he had said might affect those who could not penetrate by their understanding the depth of this grace: “What shall we say then?” he says: “Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” For it seems unjust that, in the absence of any merit or demerit, from good or evil works, God should love the one and hate the other. Now, if the apostle had wished us to understand that there were future good works of the one, and evil works of the other, which of course God foreknew, he would never have said, not of works, but, of future works, and in that way would have solved the difficulty, or rather there would then have been no difficulty to solve. As it is, however, after answering, God forbid; that is, God forbid that there should be unrighteousness with God; he goes on to prove that there is no unrighteousness in God’s doing this, and says: “For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” “ (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98. Predestination to Eternal Life is Wholly of God’s Free Grace.)
“But that world which God is in Christ reconciling unto Himself, which is saved by Christ, and has all its sins freely pardoned by Christ, has been chosen out of the world that is hostile, condemned, and defiled. For out of that mass, which has all perished in Adam, are formed the vessels of mercy, whereof that world of reconciliation is composed, that is hated by the world which belongeth to the vessels of wrath that are formed out of the same mass and fitted to destruction. Finally, after saying, “If ye were of the world, the world would love its own,” He immediately added, “But because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.” And so these men were themselves also of that world, and, that they might no longer be of it, were chosen out of it, through no merit of their own, for no good works of theirs had preceded; and not by nature, which through free-will had become totally corrupted at its source: but gratuitously, that is, of actual grace. For He who chose the world out of the world, effected for Himself, instead of finding, what He should choose: for “there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace. And if by grace,” he adds, “then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace.”” (Tractates on the Gospel of John, 15:17-19)
John Chrysostom on Sola Fide
“By what law? Of works? Nay, but by the law of faith. See he calls the faith also a law delighting to keep to the names, and so allay the seeming novelty. But what is the law of faith? It is, being saved by grace. Here he shows God’s power, in that He has not only saved, but has even justified, and led them to boasting, and this too without needing works, but looking for faith only.” (Homily 7 on Romans III)
“For this is [the righteousness] of God when we are justified not by works, (in which case it were necessary that not a spot even should be found,) but by grace, in which case all sin is done away. And this at the same time that it suffers us not to be lifted up, (seeing the whole is the free gift of God,) teaches us also the greatness of that which is given. For that which was before was a righteousness of the Law and of works, but this is the righteousness of God.” (John Chrysostom, Homily 11 on Second Corinthians, 2 Cor 5:21)
Theodoret, Bishop of Syria, on the same:
“The salvation of man depends upon the divine philanthropy alone. For we do not gather it as the wages of our righteousness, but it is the gift of the divine goodness.” (On the 3rd chap, of Zephaniah.)
Clemens Romanus, on the same:
“Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. Romans 9:5 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, Your seed shall be as the stars of heaven. All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (Letter to the Corinthians)
Ignatius on predestination and final perseverence:
“Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which is at Ephesus, in Asia, deservedly most happy, being blessed in the greatness and fullness of God the Father, and predestinated before the beginning of time, that it should be always for an enduring and unchangeable glory, being united and elected through the true passion by the will of the Father, and Jesus Christ, our God: Abundant happiness through Jesus Christ, and His undefiled grace.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Ephesians, Ch. 0)
“Seeing, then, all things have an end, these two things are simultaneously set before us— death and life; and every one shall go unto his own place. For as there are two kinds of coins, the one of God, the other of the world, and each of these has its special character stamped upon it, [so is it also here.] The unbelieving are of this world; but the believing have, in love, the character of God the Father by Jesus Christ, by whom, if we are not in readiness to die into His passion, His life is not in us.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Magnesians, Ch. 5)
“Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that wills all things” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Romans. Ch. 0)
“I give you these instructions, beloved, assured that you also hold the same opinions [as I do]. But I guard you beforehand from those beasts in the shape of men, whom you must not only not receive, but, if it be possible, not even meet with; only you must pray to God for them, if by any means they may be brought to repentance, which, however, will be very difficult. Yet Jesus Christ, who is our true life, has the power of [effecting] this.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrnaeans, Ch. 4)
“Flee, therefore, those evil offshoots [of Satan], which produce death-bearing fruit, whereof if any one tastes, he instantly dies. For these men are not the planting of the Father. For if they were, they would appear as branches of the cross, and their fruit would be incorruptible.” (Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Trallians, Ch. 11)
I don’t think you Papists really, truly appreciate what you’re getting into here.
You obviously do not understand the early Church. James, and the other apostles, served as servants: no pontification, no massive cathedrals and lavish lifestypes, no one kissed their rings . . . they were true servants. Your argument regarding a "hierarchy" in the early Church is ridiculous since your entire motive is to give creedance to the power structure of the dynasty in the Vatican.
>>>So a pope can’t be moved by the Holy Spirit? <<<
No. Maybe if he left the Catholic organization Christ might send it to him.
Look at the organization. It is not the organization of church. It is big business. Look at your history. Look at the situation now. Do you truly think that anyone with the Holy Spirit would have allowed the atrocities Pope's have endorsed throughout your bloody history? Would anyone speaking from the Holy Spirit make this horrific statement?
"Sharing our experience in carrying that cross, to expel the illness within our hearts, which embitters our life: it is important that you do this in your meetings. Those that are Christian, with the Bible, and those that are Muslim, with the Quran. The faith that your parents instilled in you will always help you move on.”
That is more of a Rich Warren statement than a Christian statement. And it certainly wasn't received from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit would never endorse an antichrist religion, whether it be Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, . . . , whatever. That is pure Satan-speak.
Popes have proven, throughout history, they have never experienced the Holy Spirit. The entire hierarchy is top-down, like government (or the Mob), rather than bottom up as Christ teaches; and when given the chance they have resorted to the natural state of a top-down organization: they became vicious and vile; and instead of humble surroundings, they have always lived in outrageous splendour, while milking the peasants to support their lavish lifestyles. They are no different than the leadership of the Jews in the days of Christ, except they didn’t kill any prophets. They would have (under the charge of heresy, naturally;) but we were fresh out of prophets by the time the Catholic organization was schemed.
You never did address this statement by James, and how that applies to priests:
"Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much." (James 5:16)
Philip
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