Posted on 12/30/2013 9:35:20 AM PST by RnMomof7
......"The U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life has put hard numbers on the anecdotal evidence: One out of every 10 Americans is an ex-Catholic. If they were a separate denomination, they would be the third-largest denomination in the United States, after Catholics and Baptists. One of three people who were raised Catholic no longer identifies as Catholic.........
"Thankfully, although the U.S. bishops have not supported research on people who have left the church, the Pew Center has.
Pew’s data shows that those leaving the church are not homogenous. They can be divided into two major groups: those who become unaffiliated and those who become Protestant. Almost half of those leaving the church become unaffiliated and almost half become Protestant. Only about 10 percent of ex-Catholics join non-Christian religions.
This article will focus on Catholics who have become Protestant. I am not saying that those who become unaffiliated are not important; I am leaving that discussion to another time."................
"Nor are the people becoming Protestants lazy or lax Christians. In fact, they attend worship services at a higher rate than those who remain Catholic. While 42 percent of Catholics who stay attend services weekly, 63 percent of Catholics who become Protestants go to church every week. That is a 21 percentage-point difference.
" Seventy-one percent say their faith is “very strong,” while only 35 percent and 22 percent reported that their faith was very strong when they were children and teenagers, respectively. On the other hand, only 46 percent of those who are still Catholic report their faith as “very strong” today as an adult.
(Excerpt) Read more at ncronline.org ...
One has to wonder what drew all those closet homosexuals to Roman Catholic seminary.
Shock of the decade was hearing my Catholic HS priest principal outed after 15 years of abuse by a local beat reporter. Then the flood gates opened and it was found out the principal used an after school club for students interested in the priesthood to recruit and abuse teen aged boys. It wasn’t until 15 years after the incidents the news broke. The reporter found him not far away in an upscale Long Island parish as pastor. Still administering confession and communion.
The parents of the abused students were outraged, because part of the hush money deal was the priest would be sent to a monastery of some sort and never again to a school or parish.
The big deal was while he was still principal he was arrested trying to proposition a teen at the local public HS one evening. All the police did was return him home and no charges filed. When two students with parents approached the archdiocese they were offered hush money and placement at another Catholic school. The archdiocese did not remove the priest principal and he stayed another few years until more cases were launched against him. A year after he was removed I joined the faculty as an assistant coach since my university was not far away. Everyone was hush hush on what happened to the principal. I was asked to stop asking questions. Got the hint loud and clear.
Everyone thinks the priest abuse scandals are limited to the US and post Vatican 2. My older grand uncles and uncles who were raised in Ireland told me that garbage was going on in the 1930s too.
Very sad indeed. I attend daily Mass to receive the Eucharist, hear the Readings, learn from the homily, help others.....
Jim Jones and David Koresch were PROTESTANTS.
Like I’ve said God has special place reserved in hell for heretics. And FR is infested with them.
So does my mother-in-law. She was shocked to hear the priest say those things.
There has to be subversives inside the Church for such error to flourish—esp at Catholic universities and colleges. It is truly evil.
Fr. Oko’s report is more recent and was commissioned by the Vatican. It identifies the “homomafia” and the evil effects inside the Catholic Church-—from interviews with the seminarians/priests/bishops, etc.
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2013/02/fr-dariusz-okos-major-article-with-pope.html
LOL if you say so. They were kooks who got people murdered can we agree on that? Nothing Biblical about those two groups. Satan twisted and added stuff to the Bible and so did Satan’s disciples Koresh and Jones.
BTW in accordance with Francis I new years resolution list I invoked #5 and #7 in this post.
I believe you should review Pope Francis’ new years resolution list for his faithful flock. Specifically #5. I am employing #7.
Obviously, you need to go up and do some serious reasoning on Papal Infallibility.
It’s endemic in the RC clergy. Been going on for hundreds of years.
St. Peter Damian’s Book of Gomorrah: Homosexual Situation Graver than Damian’s Time
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/929551/posts
Hey, since Catholics seem to feel free to define Protestants and Protestantism, we are non-Catholics are free to define Catholics and Catholicism and decide who is and isn't Catholic. Like, Kennedy, Pelosi, Chavez, child molesting priests, all whom the Catholic church owns and serves communion to. Not to mention other groups such as the Society of Saint Pius X (FSSPX) and sedevacantists.
Rather, what is obvious is that you need to answer my basic questions, and steadfastly refuse to do so. For to do so would expose the specious nature of your attempted arguments.
I then shall answer them for you according to RC argumentation.
► 1. What is the RC basis for assurance of Truth?
While they try to appeal to Scripture and history and human reasoning in seeking to establish Rome ans her traditions of men, this is not their real basis for assurance of Truth, for they also argue human reasoning is fallible, and to argue on the basis of Scripture and history would render them as being like evangelicals.
Despite RC argumentation for Rome based on evidences in appeal to human reasoning, their goal is to bring us to place trust in Rome and forsake objective examination of evidences in order to ascertain the veracity of RC truth claims.
Thus before arguing Scripture with RCs, the very basis for their assurance should be exposed and examined.
► 2. Is an infallible magisterium is necessary for assurance of Truth?
Yes, and which is the RC basis for assurance. And they are assured Rome is assuredly infallible because Rome has presumed to infallibly declare she is and will be perpetually infallible whenever she speaks in accordance with her infallibly defined (scope and subject-based) formula, which renders her declaration that she is infallible, to be infallible, as well as all else she accordingly declares (if she does).
"The intolerance of the Church toward error, the natural position of one who is the custodian of truth, her only reasonable attitude makes her forbid her children to read or to listen to heretical controversy, or to endeavor to discover religious truths by examining both sides of the question. This places the Catholic in a position whereby he must stand aloof from all manner of doctrinal teaching other than that delivered by his Church through her accredited ministers."
“The reason of this stand of his is that, for him, there can be no two sides to a question which for him is settled; for him, there is no seeking after the truth: he possesses it in its fulness, as far as God and religion are concerned. His Church gives him all there is to be had; all else is counterfeit...
Holding to Catholic principles how can he do otherwise? How can he consistently seek after truth when he is convinced that he holds it? Who else can teach him religious truth when he believes that an infallible Church gives him God's word and interprets it in the true and only sense? — (John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Chapters XIX, XXIII. the consistent believer (1904); Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York ; http://www.gutenberg.org/files/18438/18438-h/18438-h.htm)
“All that we do [as must be patent enough now] is to submit our judgment and conform our beliefs to the authority Almighty God has set up on earth to teach us; this, and nothing else.”
“The Vicar of Christ is the Vicar of God; to us the voice of the Pope is the voice of God. This, too, is why Catholics would never dream of calling in question the utterance of a priest in expounding Christian doctrine according to the teaching of the Church;”
“He is as sure of a truth when declared by the Catholic Church as he would be if he saw Jesus Christ standing before him and heard Him declaring it with His Own Divine lips.” —“Henry G. Graham, "What Faith Really Means", (Nihil Obstat:C. SCHUT, S. T.D., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: EDM. CANONICUS SURMONT, D.D.,Vicarius Generalis. WESTMONASTERII, Die 30 Septembris, 1914 ); http://www.catholictradition.org/Tradition/faith2-10.htm]
“Still, fundamentalists ask, where is the proof from Scripture? Strictly, there is none. It was the Catholic Church that was commissioned by Christ to teach all nations and to teach them infallibly. The mere fact that the Church teaches the doctrine of the Assumption as definitely true is a guarantee that it is true.” — Karl Keating, Catholicism and Fundamentalism (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1988), p. 275.
VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906: It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of per sons, the Pastors and the flock, those who occupy a rank in the different degrees of the hierarchy and the multitude of the faithful. So distinct are these categories that with the pastoral body only rests the necessary right and authority for promoting the end of the society and directing all its members towards that end; the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors.
► 3. Under what basis did the church begin?
The church began upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, in dissent from those who were the stewards of Scripture, and inheritor of Divine (conditional) promises of God's presence and preservation, (Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Num. 23:19,23; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33,34; Mal. 3:6; Rm. 3:2; 9:4) and could claim historical descent, sitting in the seat of Moses. But who presumed of themselves an assured veracity above that which is written (cf. 1Cor. 4:6) teaching traditions of men as doctrines of Scripture, and thus the Lord reproved them by the latter. (Mk. 7:2-16)
For as written, Scripture as the assured Word of God became the transcendent standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims, as is abundantly evidenced .
And upon which the Lord and His church established their Truth claims. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39, 14:11; Acts 17:2,11; Rm. 15:19; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)
And Scripture also materially provided for writings being recognized as being of God, and thus for additional writings being added and established as Divine, and thus for a canon.
It also provides for the church, which via its formal magisterium (though not restricted to it) is to discern and confirm both writings as well as men of God as being just that. However, the lack of said recognition and confirmation does not necessarily mean such are not of God and thus have no spiritual authority. And in fact oftentimes God raised up men to reprove those who sat in the seats of such power, in order to correct error and preserve Truth.
And thus the church began and thus it has been preserved as the body of Christ, manifest by faith which works by love in obeying Scripture, and in adding to the kingdom of God, though organizationally they came to exist in different tribes for good as well as wrong reasons.
► 4. Are you arguing that an infallible magisterium is necessary to recognize and establish which writings are of God, and thus a canon, and without which these books [or men] would not have authority? And that Rome is that magisterium in the light of it being the historical stewards of Scripture.
Yes, that is the RC argument, yet under this model the church itself is rendered invalid, for as said, it began in dissent from those who were the stewards of Scripture, etc. And writings were recognized and est. as being of God (Scripture) long before their ever was a church in Rome, or any church. And truth was preserved. Thus the approx. 250 OT quotes and hundreds of allusions to the OT in the NT.
This does not mean we cannot engage an RC who is condescending to arguing from Scripture as if that was his/her basis for determining Truth, but as all that Rome is the OTC has been refuted on the basis, we should recognize that Scripture and other testimony is not his real basis for assurance, and thus it should be realized what is, and the circularity of that premise., versus the basis upon which the church began. For thus it is written, to the glory of God.
-— Thus before arguing Scripture with RCs, the very basis for their assurance should be exposed and examined. -—
“If he will not listen to the church, treat him as a pagan or tax collector.” —Jesus
The Lord said this while he was living. Jesus could have said, “If he will not listen to ME.” So Christ’s Church must teach with His authority.
Did Christ’s visible Church pass away? Did the gates of hell prevail against it?
Had to look it up, but remember this bishop from my Catholic HS European AP history. Where did bishops like this go to:)?
It is popularly believed that maces were employed by the clergy in warfare to avoid shedding blood [2] (sine effusione sanguinis). The evidence for this is sparse and appears to derive almost entirely from the depiction of Bishop Odo of Bayeux wielding a club-like mace at the Battle of Hastings in the Bayeux Tapestry, the idea being that he did so to avoid either shedding blood or bearing the arms of war. The fact that his brother Duke William carries a similar item suggests that, in this context, the mace may have been simply a symbol of authority.[3] Certainly, other Bishops were depicted bearing the arms of a knight without comment, such as Archbishop Turpin who bears both a spear and a sword named "Almace" in The Song of Roland or Bishop Adhemar of Le Puy, who also appears to have fought as a knight during the First Crusade, an expedition that Odo also joined.[4](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(club))
True; can't have them awful guys giving the CHURCH a bad name!
Pope Stephen VI (896–897), who had his predecessor Pope Formosus exhumed, tried, de-fingered, briefly reburied, and thrown in the Tiber.[1]
Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.
Pope Benedict IX (1032–1044, 1045, 1047–1048), who "sold" the Papacy
Pope Boniface VIII (1294–1303), who is lampooned in Dante's Divine Comedy
Pope Urban VI (1378–1389), who complained that he did not hear enough screaming when Cardinals who had conspired against him were tortured.[2]
Pope Alexander VI (1492–1503), a Borgia, who was guilty of nepotism and whose unattended corpse swelled until it could barely fit in a coffin.[3]
Pope Leo X (1513–1521), a spendthrift member of the Medici family who once spent 1/7 of his predecessors' reserves on a single ceremony[4]
Pope Clement VII (1523–1534), also a Medici, whose power-politicking with France, Spain, and Germany got Rome sacked.
Like I said in other posts, FR is infested with PROTESTant hating Catholics.
Don’t bother me anymore with your obsessional verbage about the Catholic Church.
Your hatred of all things PROTESTant runs so deep, normal conservation with you is not possible. Now go away and bother someone who gives a damn.
Really?
You actually SAID this??
In light of HISTORY???
AMAZING!!!
I was referring to formal Church Beliefs not the practices of clerics and Popes at different times.
Ah...
I see the difference.
Just what 'beliefs' did Jim Jones and David Koresh and Billy Graham teach that is so upsetting?
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