Praying to Saints

Tim Staples' Blog ^ | October 25, 2013 | Tim Staples

[GonzoII]

Praying to Saints

In his book, Answers to Catholic Claims, A Discussion of Biblical Authority, Protestant Apologist James White claims praying to saints is contrary to Scripture:

The Bible strongly condemns communication with the dead. It does not matter if those who died were good or bad, saintly or evil, there is to be no communication between the living and the dead. The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone.

Biblical texts like Deut. 18:10-11 and Isaiah 19:3—each of which condemns necromancy—are employed to say “communication with the dead” is condemned absolutely.

Actually, what is being condemned in these texts from Deuteronomy and Isaiah is conjuring up the dead through wizards and mediums, not praying to saints. The Church has always condemned this that is commonly called necromancy. Mediums attempt to conjure up spirits and manipulate the spiritual realm at will. This is categorically different from Christians asking for the intercession of their brothers and sisters in Christ. We do not “conjure up” or manipulate anything or anyone. True prayer—whether to God or the angels and saints—changes the pray-er, not the pray-ee.

If one says recklessly as Mr. White said, “… there is to be no communication between the living and the dead,” where does this leave Jesus? He is clearly guilty according to Luke 9:29-31:

And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem.

According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White.

FIRST CONTACT

There is another point to White’s argument that requires a deeper level of response. Notice, he said, “The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone.” This point taken alone would not exclude communicating with the dead in any context. It would only exclude such communication if contact originates from the earth dweller.

In one sense, it seems Mr. White, as well as our Protestant friends he represents by his statement, is stuck in an Old Testament mindset. It is true that we do not see Old Covenant faithful initiating prayer to the dearly departed, but this is to be expected because the faithful dead before Christ and the beatific vision afforded by him would not have had the power to either hear or respond to those prayers. Moreover, the Old Covenant People of God did not have the developed understanding of the after-life that only came with the Revelation of Christ.

Jesus Christ introduces a radical development the Old Covenant saints could not have imagined when he clearly initiates the communication with the faithful departed unlike anything we saw in the Old Testament. I say “clearly” because even Protestant Apologist Eric Svendsen seems to see it, though I’m not sure how cognizant he was of the rammifications of this statement he made about the Transfiguration in his book, Evangelical Answers:

The transfiguration was an apocalyptic event choreographed directly by the Son of God to give the apostles a glimpse of his eschatological glory…

If Jesus “choreographed” it, then he initiated it. Some may say, “Well, he’s God, so he can do that.” Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him. If Jesus initiated communication with the dead, there is no reason to believe followers of Jesus cannot do the same. This is precisely what we mean as Catholics when we say we “pray to the saints.”

THE BIBLE SAYS SO

The New Testament presents to us very plain examples of the faithful on earth initiating communication with the saints in heaven. First, we have Hebrews 11-12. Chapter 11 gives us what I call the “hall of faith” wherein the lives of many of the Old Testament saints are recounted. Then, the inspired author encourages these to whom he referred earlier as a people who were being persecuted for their faith (10:32-35), to consider that they are “surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,” encouraging them to “run the race” of faith set before them. Then, beginning in 12:18, he encourages these New Covenant faithful by reminding them that their covenant—the New Covenant—is far superior to the Old:

For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire … darkness … gloom … and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them…

But you have come to… the city of the living God… and to innumerable angels… and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven… and to… God… and to the spirits of just men made perfect… and to Jesus…

Notice, in the Old Covenant the faithful approached God alone and with trepidation. But in the New Covenant, the faithful have experienced a radical change for the better. “But you have come to … and to … and to … and to.” In the same way we can initiate prayer and in so doing “come to” God and Jesus, we can also “come to” the angels and “the spirits of just men made perfect.” Those would be the saints in heaven. In the fellowship of the saints, we have the aid and encouragement of the whole family of God.

The Book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth:

The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped (5:8-14).

These “elders” are offering the prayers of the faithful symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. And because they are seen receiving these prayers, we can reasonably conclude they were both directed to these saints in heaven and that they were initiated by the faithful living on earth. We also see this same phenomenon being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4:

And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God.

And these prayers offered to God through the mediation of the angels are answered as symbolized by “thunder” and “lightning” that are then cast upon the earth through those prayers:

Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth; and there were peals of thunder, loud noises, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake.

The bottom line is this: Both the faithful on earth and our brothers and sisters in heaven (and let’s not forget our “cousins,” the angels) are all acting just as Catholics would expect. Believers on earth are initiating prayers which the saints and angels in heaven are receiving. Is this the necromancy condemned in Deuteronomy and Isaiah? Absolutely not! This is New Testament Christianity.

[dartuser]

About three years ago I finally came around to the “fate of non-believers is the second death where they are utterly destroyed for all time and eternity (i.e. no eternal suffering)”.

Adopting error is nothing to hang your hat on ...

Rev. 14:9-11

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

... its crystal clear ...

Here endeth the lesson ...

[cuban leaf]

I already posted an article about that.
Read 20:14. It says the lake of fire is the second death.

Now read Revelation 1:20: The seven stars are the angels[e] of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

The churches are not really lampstands. The angels are not really stars, and the second death is not really a lake of fire.

This is revelation. Regarding this sort of stuff, it is rife with symbolism. Now, if that symbolism matches a bunch of other scriptures in detail, that’s different. But I would not get my entire stand on the fate of the lost from text rich in symbolism when the bible talks about their fate dozens of times, always referring to it as death, destruction, the same fate as animals, the opposite of eternal life, perish, etc.

The evidence truly is overwhelming that those that are not saved cease to exist for all eternity.

[cuban leaf]

You are inserting man’s thinking into this. It’s why man made religions don’t have Grace. Those against Christianity use the exact same arguments you did against believers going to heaven even after sinning. It’s not “fair” in their eyes just as sinners simply dieing is not “fair” in your book. But we are talking about God’s book.

What is the point, exactly, of punishing? What is God’s motive for making people suffer for all eternity, often for merely not accepting His free gift? A punishment that is incomprehensible? Makes no sense unless there is some inner part of me that I am not aware of that knows exactly what it is. I can’t speak to that.

And how does one live outside the presence of God? I don’t think God is that petty. And dying without Christ is the human default condition. The wages of sin is death. Death is a very clear term. And if the gift of God is eternal life, the opposite is not eternal life, but in an icky place and condition. It is eternal death. You die and STAY dead.

[cuban leaf]

You are the first one I’ve ever heard that pulled something out of Revelation and said it is Crystal clear. :-)

I recommend a study on the use of “forever and ever” in the bible. It’s kinda interesting. Sometimes it is a very short time.

[cuban leaf]

Here is another lesson: http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/6.htm

If you don’t want to read the whole thing, just search: “5. The Witness of Revelation” and start reading there. He covers your argument. No need for me to re-invent the wheel here.

[CynicalBear]

“shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever” is NOT metaphor.

I think you really need to do a study of the Greek words used for death and thier use in scripture. It can refer to spiritual death or bodily death. It basically means a separation from. It does not mean to “exist no more”. The Greek word used in Revelation thanatos and does NOT mean lifeless. The Greek word nekros means lifeless and is NOT used in those passages.

Again, the word used for those who die the “second death” is thonatos.
Thonatos - the death of the body that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended with the implied idea of future misery in hell the power of death since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name, the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell Lexicons - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New Testament Greek Lexicon - New American Standard – Thanatos

Using just the English words will not lead to understanding what scripture is saying.

>>The evidence truly is overwhelming that those that are not saved cease to exist for all eternity.<<

No it isn’t. The evidence is overwhelming that those who die the second death will suffer for eternity.

[CynicalBear]

Let me take just one example from that site. The author makes this comment about 2 Thess 1:9.

“When it comes to the punishment of the wicked, "unending" simply means"until they are destroyed."

Well, let’s look at the Greek words used in that passage.

2 Thess 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting (aiónios) destruction (olethros) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Let’s look at the Greek words used there.

Aiónios - eternal, unending

olethros - ("ruination") however does not imply "extinction" (annihilation). Rather it emphasizes the consequent loss that goes with the complete "undoing."

Now, if you put the meaning of those two words together we can see that there is indeed unending ruination. Put together with other passages in scripture and we can understand there is unending torment or suffering

I would caution you.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

[GonzoII]

"It is humerous that you had to go outside the canon of Scripture and choose the shepherd to try to buttress any case that Mary or departed saints are aware of things on earth and can hear us."

I'll take the witness of the Church Fathers who are Christian witnesses of the beliefs of the Church in its early years over your witness any day. ;0)

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“
I’ll take the witness of the Church Fathers who are Christian witnesses of the beliefs of the Church in its early years over your witness any day. ;0)”

I understand. You are building a doctrine on the words of mere men, instead of the God-breathed revelation of scripture...

And not finding anything contemporaneous, you had to go out a couple hundred years as pagan customs were added to the church. What could possibly go wrong with that approach?

[boatbums]

[boatbums]

Man was created as a living soul from the very start. Each person is a body, soul and spirit created in the image of God. Though the body is mortal - subject to death, the soul is eternal. Jesus warned in Matthew 10:28, "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." and also, in Luke 12:5, "But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.". It has been said that Jesus spoke more about hell than any other topic - it is a place that NO ONE would want to end up in and will be created for the devil, the angels that followed him and all the condemned who would not receive Christ as savior.

Jesus would not lie about this. He didn't sugar coat it or downplay the terror of the place. When he said that we should fear God more than man, he meant that the worst men could do to us is kill the body but God could kill the body as well as throwing us (our souls) into hell. I really don't think he was mincing words and playing a game of scare tactics. There WILL be real and eternal punishment. We ALL deserve hell because we ALL sin, but the great mercy and grace of God provided a way that all our sins would be paid in full and we would no longer be condemned. Those who go to hell will be there because they rejected the grace of God.

[thecodont]

"Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!" 2 Corinthians 9:15

[boatbums]

AMEN!

[mdmathis6]

I simply cite the Bible as it is written...you are citing old Armstrongism, the old World Wide church of God and prophecy concepts of death and afterlife. You are the one thinking as a man thinks. To you, God is the great and kindly veterinarian who puts sinners to sleep who are simply too bent and sick to have accepted God’s kindness.

The issue is one of deterrence, not simply punishment. Once a spirit/soul has been formed it can never again be uncreated or said to have never existed at all. God exists in the eternal now...past,future,present all at once. We live and move and have our being in God. It is not simply a matter of just snuffing a soul/spirit out of existence since that individual still lives in God’s past and present as well. I suspect that is why God simply doesn’t simply snuff sinners out of existence since it may very well effect the past and present events of God’s plan for our world. Certainly that individual continues to exist in the memory of God, even when separated eternally.

So God created the reality of eternal damnation as a deterrence for those hard hearted enough not to listen to God’s exhortations thru love.

Finally, on the subject of eternal punishment I give you the words of Jesus Christ from Matthew 25:46”46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (the context is the separation of the peoples...sheep and goats, right from left).

Christ’s stated reality of eternal punishment, denotes the reality of an individual’s spiritual consciousness having a living eternal awareness of such a punishment!

[cuban leaf]

You said the soul is eternal and yet followed it up with scripture that says the opposite: “but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

This is the same scripture I have used in the past to show people that, in fact, the sould can be destroyed.

Regarding the rest of your post, yes, total destruction is a thing to be feared to those who value life.

Also, regarding this part of the scripture you quoted: “...has authority to throw you into hell.” Hell itself is actually destroyed in the end (check out revelation). It is also fascinating to study what “hell” actually is.

But the Gospels are called such for a reason. Thanks to Adam we are all destined to eventually die in all ways. It is the default condition of every man ever born. But Jesus offers a better way. It is what I choose. Rather, He is who I choose. His blood as the attonement for my sin, that is - and eternal life in His presence as opposed to death, to never be reversed.

[mdmathis6]

Cuban leaf is trying to argue that a sinner’s consciousness and inner spirit are simply destroyed and there is no more of that individual sinner anymore after the great white throne judgment. Christ himself in Matthew 25 describes the “eternal punishment” that happens to a sinner. Eternal punishment denotes that there will be an eternal individual mind/soul that is aware of the punishment that it is experiencing.

CS Lewis described the process as a tourniquet for the sinning soul, a last act of kindness by God for the soul that would never allow God to do anything else for it!

[cuban leaf]

The evidence is overwhelming that those who die the second death will suffer for eternity.

---

How can they? They died a second death. They’re dead, Jim, in every way people mean the term “dead”.

And an important distinction for me: I don’t get doctrine from Revelation. I don’t believe that is that book’s function.

If I find myself constantly going to go to Revelation to get “proofs” for my doctrine - especially critical doctrine, I man need to consider what the rest of the Word says about that doctrine. And, frankly, the rest of the bible, regarding the fate of the lost, more closely matches the personality of the God of the bible.

Now, I think there is a special fate for Satan and his angels, but since none of us are angels, I read of it not trying to interpret the fate of any men. Satan and angels have more complete knowledge of the spiritual world than we do. It’s kinda like man doesn’t hold a child as accountable for a particular crime as it does a 30 year old man.

BTW, yes, I spend a lot of time in both the greek and hebrew Lexicons and compare the source scripture for both the KJV and NIV when those sources are different.

I only believed in eternal suffering when I just believed what I was told. When I studied the word, I changed my position. One reason was that as I matured in Christ it clearly diverged more and more from His personality.

Jesus saves me from death and destruction, not eternal, sadistic torture. My God is not a sadist. I come to the Lord out of appreciation for His gift, not fear that he’s a sadistic old fart that will torture me for all eternity otherwise. The latter does not describe the God of the bible but, sadly, is how a lot of people in the church see Him. It is also a wedge Satan uses to keep people from believing God is really capable of love for us. It is used to mock Christianity, and for good reason. Having studied the subject for a number of years now, I’m ashamed that I ever bought into the notion. I think this guy’s analogy demonstrates it best and shows the core problem of the spiritual cunnundrom it puts on us from here http://jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php

Suppose for a moment that a wonderful man—Mr. Right, if you will—offers a marriage proposal to the woman he loves. “Marry me,” he says, “and I will give you a life like you’ve never dreamed of before. You will be loved with the greatest commitment and passion that any woman has ever known. I will give you the finest house with all of the wonderful things you’ve ever wanted, and you will be happy for the rest of your days!”

Now suppose the woman is very flattered by the proposal, but is uncertain about whether or not she is ready for such a commitment. Asking for a few more days to think it over, Mr. Right answers, “You are welcome to take more time, but it’s only fair that I warn you what will happen if you decline my generous offer. Your only option, other than spending paradise with me, is to be thrown into my underground dungeon, have your eyes gouged from their sockets, and be subjected to unimaginable pain every hour, on the hour, for the rest of your long, miserable life.”

What do you suppose would be going through the young woman’s mind at a time like this? I imagine that would change the way she feels about the man considerably. She might have previously accepted Mr. Right’s proposal because of her love for him, but is there much chance of that now? Surely not. If she takes him seriously, she’ll undoubtedly marry him, but not as much for love as out of genuine terror at the alternative.

Is this God’s way of doing things? Does God want His people to turn to Him out of fear that they will be tortured otherwise? Where is the love in that? If everyone really believed in this doctrine, wouldn’t that properly tarnish their concept of the Savior? I would imagine some might even have a hard time calling Him “Savior” at all. How merciful can it be to create a never-ending torture pit for everyone and then save only a few from it?

[cuban leaf]

In my opinion, you are arguing something we don’t disagree on. I believe their ruination will be unending. Eternal. I believe they will die and “stay dead”. Their death will be unending.

Also, you said, “Put together with other passages in scripture and we can understand there is unending torment or suffering”. I see it as exactly the opposite. As I’ve mentioned before, beyond my normal bible study, I listen to the bible on a thumb drive plugged into my dashboard on my commute. My daily commute is 2.5 hours. Just listening to His word withoug verse breaks and fumbling gives one yet another angle to study and learn. Frankly, I’m amazed at how much scripture mentions the fate of the lost. I’m also amazed that virtually every time it says they will die in pretty plain language.

If I came to the Lord just by reading His word, but ignored the highly stylistic and symbolic prose of revelation, I would never come away with the idea that non-believers are tortured for all eternity. I would come away with the belief that my loving God sacrificed His only sone that anyone who accepted His free gift would not be destroyed like an animal, a tree, etc.

The eternal torture thing would never even enter my mind for another reason - it does not match the personality of the God of the bible. Even in His anger and wrath against men of the old testament, what was his punishment? Death and destruction to the point where they are no more. This included entire cities. And this is used as a model over and over again in the NT regarding the fate of the lost. It is, to me, crystal clear - and the “annihilation” meme perfectly matches the personality of the God of the old testament and new.

Regarding your warning in 2 Timothy 4:3, I hear you. I also believe no small number of people cautioned Martin Luther with the same verse. There is plenty of whacked doctrine out there. Study will clear it up, though. To be honest, it is how I view the eternal suffering meme (as well as the Left Behind stuff). But opinions vary.

[cuban leaf]

I simply cite the Bible as it is written...you are citing old Armstrongism, the old World Wide church of God and prophecy concepts of death and afterlife.

---

Actually, no. Though I suppose Armstrong could have been right about some things in a “stopped clock is right twice a day” sort of way.

And citing the bible as it is written is fine. But Revelation requires special consideration for obvious reasons. At least, I assume they are obvious to you.

I can cite the bible all day regarding annihilation. John 3:16 is a good place to start. ;-)

[CynicalBear]

There are those who teach that hell, the place that the devil and those who do not accept Christ alone as their savior are destined for is simply a place where they are destroyed completely and will no longer exist. They teach that eternal doesn’t mean for ever and ever as we understand it. They teach that it’s just for a period of time then ends in destruction to nothingness. Those teachings are from Satan and not from God.

They do however teach that those who take Christ as their savior will be given eternal life. They twist the words of scripture to come to their conclusions. Look first at Matthew 25:46.

"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life."

There are two words we need to focus on in that passage the first is “eternal” and the second is “punishment”. The word used in the Greek for “eternal” is aiónios which means eternal and unending. The same word is used for those who are righteous and “will go into eternal life”. Those who teach no “eternal” punishment must then concede that there is no “eternal” life. They can’t have it both ways.

Then we have the word “punishment”. The Greek word used there is kolasis which means chastisement, punishment or torment. There is no way they can make that word mean extinction or annihilation.

Paul, in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, uses a different word that they would have us believe supports their contention.

“Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”

In that verse the word used for “destruction” is olethros which is translated ruin, doom or destruction. Once again the word does NOT mean extinction or annihilation.

Where do unbelievers go after judgment? The same place Satan goes.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The Greek word used there for everlasting is aiónios and again the same word used for everlasting life. Satan and those who do not take Jesus as their Lord and Savior will end up in eternal torment. Those who trust in Jesus alone for their salvation will enjoy an eternal life of happiness, joy, and peace with Christ.