Posted on 12/16/2013 8:08:08 AM PST by GonzoII
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In his book, Answers to Catholic Claims, A Discussion of Biblical Authority, Protestant Apologist James White claims praying to saints is contrary to Scripture: The Bible strongly condemns communication with the dead. It does not matter if those who died were good or bad, saintly or evil, there is to be no communication between the living and the dead. The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone. Biblical texts like Deut. 18:10-11 and Isaiah 19:3—each of which condemns necromancy—are employed to say “communication with the dead” is condemned absolutely. Actually, what is being condemned in these texts from Deuteronomy and Isaiah is conjuring up the dead through wizards and mediums, not praying to saints. The Church has always condemned this that is commonly called necromancy. Mediums attempt to conjure up spirits and manipulate the spiritual realm at will. This is categorically different from Christians asking for the intercession of their brothers and sisters in Christ. We do not “conjure up” or manipulate anything or anyone. True prayer—whether to God or the angels and saints—changes the pray-er, not the pray-ee. If one says recklessly as Mr. White said, “… there is to be no communication between the living and the dead,” where does this leave Jesus? He is clearly guilty according to Luke 9:29-31: And as [Jesus] was praying, the appearance of his countenance was altered, and his raiment became dazzling white. And behold, two men talked with him, Moses and Elijah, who appeared in glory and spoke of his departure, which he was to accomplish at Jerusalem. According to Deuteronomy 34:5, Moses was dead. And yet Jesus was communicating with him and Elijah about the most important event in human history—the redemption. Obviously, Jesus does not agree with Mr. White. FIRST CONTACT There is another point to White’s argument that requires a deeper level of response. Notice, he said, “The only communication with spirit beings that originates with man that is allowed in Scripture is that of prayer to God and He alone.” This point taken alone would not exclude communicating with the dead in any context. It would only exclude such communication if contact originates from the earth dweller. In one sense, it seems Mr. White, as well as our Protestant friends he represents by his statement, is stuck in an Old Testament mindset. It is true that we do not see Old Covenant faithful initiating prayer to the dearly departed, but this is to be expected because the faithful dead before Christ and the beatific vision afforded by him would not have had the power to either hear or respond to those prayers. Moreover, the Old Covenant People of God did not have the developed understanding of the after-life that only came with the Revelation of Christ. Jesus Christ introduces a radical development the Old Covenant saints could not have imagined when he clearly initiates the communication with the faithful departed unlike anything we saw in the Old Testament. I say “clearly” because even Protestant Apologist Eric Svendsen seems to see it, though I’m not sure how cognizant he was of the rammifications of this statement he made about the Transfiguration in his book, Evangelical Answers: The transfiguration was an apocalyptic event choreographed directly by the Son of God to give the apostles a glimpse of his eschatological glory… If Jesus “choreographed” it, then he initiated it. Some may say, “Well, he’s God, so he can do that.” Yes, he is. But he is also fully man and we are called to imitate him. If Jesus initiated communication with the dead, there is no reason to believe followers of Jesus cannot do the same. This is precisely what we mean as Catholics when we say we “pray to the saints.” THE BIBLE SAYS SO The New Testament presents to us very plain examples of the faithful on earth initiating communication with the saints in heaven. First, we have Hebrews 11-12. Chapter 11 gives us what I call the “hall of faith” wherein the lives of many of the Old Testament saints are recounted. Then, the inspired author encourages these to whom he referred earlier as a people who were being persecuted for their faith (10:32-35), to consider that they are “surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses,” encouraging them to “run the race” of faith set before them. Then, beginning in 12:18, he encourages these New Covenant faithful by reminding them that their covenant—the New Covenant—is far superior to the Old: For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire … darkness … gloom … and the sound of a trumpet, and a voice whose words made the hearers entreat that no further messages be spoken to them… But you have come to… the city of the living God… and to innumerable angels… and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven… and to… God… and to the spirits of just men made perfect… and to Jesus… Notice, in the Old Covenant the faithful approached God alone and with trepidation. But in the New Covenant, the faithful have experienced a radical change for the better. “But you have come to … and to … and to … and to.” In the same way we can initiate prayer and in so doing “come to” God and Jesus, we can also “come to” the angels and “the spirits of just men made perfect.” Those would be the saints in heaven. In the fellowship of the saints, we have the aid and encouragement of the whole family of God. The Book of Revelation gives us an even better description of this communication between heaven and earth: The twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints … the elders fell down and worshipped (5:8-14). These “elders” are offering the prayers of the faithful symbolized by incense filtering upward from the earth to heaven. And because they are seen receiving these prayers, we can reasonably conclude they were both directed to these saints in heaven and that they were initiated by the faithful living on earth. We also see this same phenomenon being performed by the angels in Revelation 8:3-4: And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God. And these prayers offered to God through the mediation of the angels are answered as symbolized by “thunder” and “lightning” that are then cast upon the earth through those prayers: Then the angel took the censer and filled it with fire from the altar and threw it on the earth; and there were peals of thunder, loud noises, flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. The bottom line is this: Both the faithful on earth and our brothers and sisters in heaven (and let’s not forget our “cousins,” the angels) are all acting just as Catholics would expect. Believers on earth are initiating prayers which the saints and angels in heaven are receiving. Is this the necromancy condemned in Deuteronomy and Isaiah? Absolutely not! This is New Testament Christianity. |
"Prove it using actual evidence that demonstrates your truth claim is true."
Hermas
"[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).
Clement of Alexandria
"In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]" (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
Origen
"But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).
But aren’t we living in analog time? From point a to point b?
God has no time frame in heaven. Always was, always is, and always will be.
Where does the bible tell us to put our hope in anything other than Christ, Himself?
No I think God views the total dissolving of a living soul into a final nothingness or to allow it to bleed into nothingness without a containing body is something as a God of Love he won’t allow himself to do. Such a fate seems worse than the lake of Fire itself.
Being fitted with a body meant for eternal destruction is that last act of kindness that God does for a soul that would never allow God to do anything else for it. To at least have a means of experiential reference in relation to a person’s center self, even if negative is a kind of tourniquet applied to the soul, however damned, lest It bleed out into nothingness.(which is a step God doesn’t apply even to Satan and his angels) Even in wrath, God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked and provides some measure of kindness for them, even in judgment!
Actually I’m not Catholic, I’m Baptist so Hell fire preaching is what I heard most of my life!
Yeah, and when I moved to KY I ended up in a Baptist church. ;-)
First time I brought the issue up you would have thought I proposed that Jesus and Satan are brothers. It caught me completely off guard.
lol
I’ve experienced nothingness. It’s not unpleasant at all because it is nothingness. It is no more unpleasant than the nothingness before I was conceived.
Burning fish guts is witchcraft. The other examples are miracles.
Gonzo
It is humerous that you had to go outside the canon of Scripture and choose the shepherd to try to buttress any case that Mary or departed saints are aware of things on earth and can hear us.
Unfortunately, failing the test of Scripture, you went out a couple centuries to try to rope in some non-Biblical sources.
Total fail. It may be motivated by sincerity, but it is a fail.
I will await the amazing evidence Salvation will provide...
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Absolutely nothing wrong with any believer interpreting Holy Scripture.
We are commanded to study to show ourselves approved and to love God with all our mind. So your graphic is cute, but unBiblical.
Don't you have another couple graphics you can post to avoid discussion???
You are making it into an actual appearance.
Read the text for once.
You are missing an entire attribute of God ... His justice.
If a murder, rapist, adultering, drug dealing despot stood before a judge with all those offenses ... would he be a just judge if he just said ... "You know pal ... I'm just gonna let you go because I love you."
Always the church fathers ... never the Bible.
Then how does the following passage fit into that scenario? Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Your turn:)
The question is whether or not God fries the individual sinner's “I AM” center out of existence. The Bible does not read that way. There also remains no crime and punishment factor since many folks love the notion of living a riotous life than pfffft...nothing. So what if God wakes them up one more time...tells them they are condemned then Pffft...dissolution of soul and spirit forever, a lot of people wouldn't care. But many folks have been saved by fiery preaching when being saved by love preaching wasn't working for them. The thought of an eternity spent in the Lake of Fire has been a factor in turning many to God. There is a final judgment and most people deep down know it to be true!
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