And just last week we remembered someone else who was willing to say yea or nay.
Posted on 11/21/2013 6:55:00 AM PST by Gamecock
Christians will commonly argue with each other about “secondary” issues of doctrine, while assuring themselves and the rest of us that it’s okay since they agree on the “primary” issues. Obviously, not all topics of biblical teaching are on the same level of importance. On the basis of this sort of distinction between “primary” and “secondary” we can readily join with Christians across denominational lines while continuing to warn Mormons that they have the primary material wrong.
My concern is that the well-intentioned emphasis on the basics of mere Christianity and “primary issues” that we can all agree on also disparages the “secondary issues.” Less clarity in the Bible, less agreement among Christians, and less treatment by the tradition should not add up to counting these matters as unimportant. I suggest that the doctrinal topics that Christians feel free to disagree about are not adiaphora in the sense that we need not take them seriously. I propose a different analogy to help alleviate this concern.
For example, lots of people will line up and howl about disagreements regarding eschatology. People readily roll their eyes, let out heavy sighs, and check their watch (or phone) to see if somehow they can escape a nit-picky and acrimonious discussion. Topics such as the rapture of the church, the tribulation, the meaning of the millennium, and the nature of hell seem to get seconded to the status of “let’s not talk about that now.” Also uncomfortable are discussions about contemporary prophecy, speaking in tongues, the office of apostleship, and the correlation between science and our theology of the Genesis account.
The problem with setting these topics aside from discussion among friends in the local church is that people don’t think about them, as if such topics are a waste of time and harmfully divisive. (On many occasions, discussion has led to division, but maybe the fault in these splits has not been theology but other interpersonal issues are the real cause of division). Without thinking about these doctrines rigorously, I doubt that people are going to understand them well, so people will be limited to the thoughtless sound bites about these topics that come through jokes, or derogatory comments about someone who actually believes some position on the topic. Sometimes, it seems that people just doubt the truth is even knowable for these topics, and judge anyone who forms a conviction about them as just narrow, arrogant, and not to be listened to. In a word, such a person is counted a Fundamentalist Bible-thumper of yesteryear.
The usual model offered to correlate the various levels of doctrines in their importance may contribute to the marginalization of and distaste for the “lesser” topics of theology. Concentric circles display the center as the core of Christian doctrine: Trinity, Jesus, Scripture, and salvation by grace through faith. Outer layers to this core give levels of decreasing importance that account for differing denominations and Christian practices, such as views of the meaning of water baptism, the Lord’s Supper, topics of eschatology, and etc.
This typical model of a hierarchy of doctrines haunted me when someone in a large audience at a debate asked me if hell was an essential doctrine. Hmmm, I wondered. Essential to what? Essential in what way? I think the intended meaning was “primary” and “core” as a doctrine that is central to Christian faith, something that must be affirmed to count as Christian. The concentric circles model was misleading for me to think through how to answer that question. I have another model to suggest in its place.
I offer the model of the human body to understand and explain the relation of doctrinal topics in our belief system. In the body, a dysfunction or sickness for an organ such as the heart is going to bring down the body much faster than a similar problem in another organ, such as the gall bladder, a muscle group, or the skin (the largest organ). A tumor in the brain is harder to ignore and usually more lethal than a tumor in the forearm. By application to theology, a problem with your doctrine of God is going to cause more severe problems that are more immediately apparent than a problem with your doctrine of hell. This does not mean that hell, like your gall bladder or forearm, is unimportant or even less important to the whole doctrinal system. Similarly, people probably don’t think very often about the identity of the church in relation to biblical Israel, but a problem here can show up in subtle ways like having high cholesterol in the bloodstream, and the buildup of plaque in one’s arteries. We only think about this when we get a blood test that shows a problem, or when there is some sort of disruption of blood flow.
The analogy shows that a problem may take longer to show up because that doctrinal part, the theological organ, does not do as much for the overall well-being of the body, as compared to your doctrine of Jesus or salvation by grace (alone, as my affinity for Luther presses me to add).
People can live without considering some doctrines (such as eschatology), but I wonder if this is similar to living without a leg. You can do it, but it’s not best, and your overall functioning will be disabled. We may be more aware of certain organs in our bodies (such as our skin, or our lungs and heart), but this does not mean that the organs we pay less attention to on a daily basis are not doing important jobs. Similarly, everything that God revealed as topics of doctrine does important jobs in our belief and practice, whether we are aware of it or not.
A truly whole-Bible theology should embrace all the doctrines, and pursue confidence and understanding of everything God has given us, no matter how much or how little it drifts into the center of our attention. Know your body, and it will help you know your theology. In this way, the ultimate unity of our understanding of biblical teaching may be preserved in a way that the concentric circles model seems to miss (and mislead). You can have your core circles and leave the others behind. You can’t do this with the body: a heart without a stomach, arms, blood vessels, etc. is not going to be alive very long. All the parts contribute to each other in many ways, manifesting the interdependence and unity of the whole. Such is our theology as well, even the weird stuff that seems just foolishness and weakness to us.
What *Holy Tradition* was passed down one person to another, face to face?
How do we know it was taught by the apostles?
How do we know that it was handed down faithfully without corruption?
What are your sources to verify this teaching and belief and to verify the integrity of the traditions that were handed down supposedly from the apostles? That what is taught today is the same as what was taught by the apostles?
That was well put. To think that God would allow the transmission of His will and words to the word of mouth transmission of fallible men is unthinkable.
Peter already considered Paul’s writings to be scripture along with the Old Testament which had been long established by that time.
2 Peter 3:15b. As also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given him, [16] as in all his letters, speaking concerning these matters, in which some things are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also THE OTHER SCRIPTURES. [17] You then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being let away with the delusion of the lawless.
The Apocrypha had already been excluded by the time of the apostles.
And just last week we remembered someone else who was willing to say yea or nay.
NOT thoroughly
You are right, nobody can agree on much of what we do have so it would be a waste of time to have any more.
“Who else is proclaiming the Gospel like the Catholics and Mormons.”
Below is from the official website jw.org:
Fast Facts—Worldwide
239—Lands where Jehovah’s Witnesses preach
595—Languages in which we publish Bibles and Bible-based literature
111,719—Congregations
7,538,994—Ministers who teach the Bible
19,000,000—People who attend our meetings or conventions
179,000,000—Bibles published by Jehovah’s Witnesses in 116 languages
20,000,000,000—Pieces of Bible-based literature published by Jehovah’s Witnesses over the past ten years
_________________________________________________________________ If the Catholics were to list every land that they preached in it would be every country in the world. If the Catholics were to list every language that they have translated Scripture into it be more than anybody in any other religion. If the Catholics were to list all of their congregations it's liable to be over 1 million.
You say that you have 7 1/2 million ministers who teach the Bible but you only have 111,000 congregations.
It is pretty amazing that out of 7 1/2 million members of the church you are able to get 12 million to attend your convention and 19 million to attend your memorial services. It is also very impressive that you can get so many members of your church to go door-to-door to leave tracks for people to read.
But again to further explain the problem in hand the Jehovah's Witnesses have their own translation of the holy Bible which does not conform to anyone else’s.
The Jehovah's Witnesses do not have a person on earth who can make yes or no decisions instead they have a council of elders that meets and decides questions of doctrine.
For you to say that you have 7 1/2 million ministers who teach the Bible would compare to Catholics having 800 million ministers who preach or teach the Bible. In my humble opinion which is only that and belongs only to me; passing out watchtowers door-to-door a few hours each month is not the same thing as sending missionaries into a foreign country. Missionaries who do nothing except preach the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I am not speaking ill of Jehovah's Witnesses but, comparing your 7 1/2 million ministers who teach the Bible when you only have 7 1/2 million members of your entire church to me is disingenuous. When you're 7 1/2 million ministers of the Bible start working full-time at being ministers of the Bible, of taking care of fledgling congregations, of teaching the gospel to people who have never heard it before, then perhaps we will have something to talk about. While you have 7 1/2 million missionaries preaching your gospel, the Mormons have only 80,000. Those 80,000 are however full-time they leave their homes and families for two years and do nothing except work for The Lord. they are not even allowed to work outside to earn income to eat with, they have to earn their income before going on their missions. While Catholic priests do have a stipend or salary it is nothing to write home about, and it is for their entire life, not just a few hours a month. Their salaries allow them to have a few personal effects and not much more. I do not recall ever having said ill of any church certainly not the Jehovah's Witnesses. But bragging about 7 1/2 million ministers in this particular context is at least disingenuous.
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Of course they are mere mortals, just like Peter was a mere morsel, just like James was a mere mortal, just like John was a mere mortal. All the apostles, all the early fathers, and all those who wrote the Holy Scriptures were simply mere mortals.
Why is it that people are willing to give more importance to dead prophets who were mortals and not listen to people living in our own day and time when they say they speak for God.
I didn't know the Hidden Mahdi had revealed himself.I didn't realize the 12th Imam had revealed himself.
Whoever it is that comes from God to rule over me I hope I have the wisdom to accept.
Ask the early church, since it began in dissent from those unto whom "were committed the oracles of God;" "Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen." (Romans 9:4-5)
And contrary to your premise, Christianity did not begin under the premise of a perpetual infallible magisterium, but by Christ and the church establishing truth claims upon Scripture substantiation in word and in power. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)
In reality, the Bible is not the work of a committee of men, but wholly divinely writings were commonly established as being so (like as men of God were) due to their unique and enduring Heavenly qualities and attestation.
And as written, it became the transcendent standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims, as is is abundantly evidenced. .
. NT writings themselves became established as being Scripture in the light of their conformity and complementarity in word and in power to what was prior established.
The problem with the BOM and other like contenders is the same problem J. Smith has with the Lord Jesus, that being the the BOM and other Mormonic literature is contrary to Scripture, as Smith is to Christ. The only way the LDS can deal with this is to assert only they can authoritatively interpret Scripture, history and their "tradition correctly.
Which is the same recourse of Rome, but their claims are unwarranted and self-proclaimed.
That is simple: they keys are obviously the gospel, as it is by faith in the gospel of Scripture that believers have been delivered from the power of darkness, and translated into the kingdom of his dear Son. (Colossians 1:13)
It is Rome that befits Christ's words: Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered. (Luke 11:52)
For her gospel of salvation usually begins with being formally justified by one's interior holiness via sprinkling in recognition of proxy faith, and usually ends with becoming good enough to enter glory via purgatory. This is not the gospel Paul preached, and thus those that preach are accursed. (Gal. 1:6-9)
Well put!!
stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel; (Philippians 1:27)
If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies, Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. (Philippians 2:1-3)
Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God. (Romans 15:5-7)
Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen. (Jude 24-25)
And most obviously not “disingenuous” either!
Rather succinct by God’s grace, but not sweet.
Dogmas of the Catholic Church [Catholic Caucus]
[CATHOLIC CAUCUS] Our Lady and Dogmas: Pondering the Assumption (Launch of Rosary Crusade)
[CATHOLIC/FRIENDS CAUCUS] This dogmatic denunciation of dogma sponsored by a disorganized...
Preserved Sinless from the Moment of Humanity (Dogma of the Immaculate Conception) [Catholic Caucus]
The Decline of Dogma and the Decline of Church Membership
The Three D's -- Dogma, Doctrine and Discipline [Ecumenical]
Radio Replies First Volume - Dogma and reason
Radio Replies First Volume - Development of dogma
Docility (on Catholic dogma and infallibility)
Ineffabilis Deus: 8 December 1854 (Dogma of the Immaculate Conception)
And not a single one of them adds anything to our required knowledge of salvation...So, they are not relevant to the church...
Who told you that??? God, or your pope???
Unfortunately it was other people's gold and other people's blood...Plus, it's a false gospel they are spreading world wide...
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