Posted on 08/15/2013 7:03:11 PM PDT by annalex
Once a woman in the crowd surrounding Christ and His disciples cries out to Him:
Blessed is the womb that bore thee, and the paps that gave thee suck. (Luke 11:27)
What is it? We have, clearly, an act of venerating Mary. Note that the Blessed Virgin is venerated properly: not on her own but as the mother of Christ. Yet the reason for venerating is indeed concerning: it is her physiological and physiologically unique relationship with Jesus that is emphasized. That is not yet paganism with its crude theories of gods giving birth to other gods, but it is lacking proper focus and Jesus corrects it:
Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God, and keep it. (Luke 11:28)
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| The Virgin with the Child on her knees and a prophet pointing at the star. Catacomb of Priscilla, late 2nd c. Source |
Having gotten past this linguistic hurdle, we can understand clearly what this passage, Luke 11:27-28, does: it establishes veneration of saints based not on their blood relation to Christ but on their obedience to God. It is in that sense that we venerate Our Lady: given that Christ is the Word of God personified, she heard and kept both Him in person as her Child and His teaching, figuratively. In Mary the essence of sainthood is seen in the flesh as well as in the mind. We could say that by the late second century at the latest, when we find evidence of the veneration of both the prophets and the Mother of God in the catacombs, the two reasons to venerate a saint: his martyrdom as in the case of Polycarp, or his obedience to the Word, as in Mary, -- unite into a single practice.
You know that the New Testament was not completely written at the time of Paul’s letter, right? Using your standard, Paul would have had to reject Revelation, for example.
And this doesn’t even address the problem of canonicity, which Protestants seem to be completely unaware of.
Assuming that the Protestant Canon is correct, is different from proving that it’s correct.
Then there’s the problem of the Bible not being canonized for centuries after Pentecost. What was the sole rule of faith then?
Protestant pastors don’t address these questions because they’re impossible for.Protestantism to answer.
We've got a fiscal conservative here (Branstad). I kinda like him.
Rv. 12 is referring to Israel, but as Scripture is not your supreme basis for authority, i would like to ask if in your opinion is your interpretation that Mary is depicted as queen in heaven in Rev. 12 something RCs can disagree with? Does this or another view have the most ancient support?
My brief question was to highlight the fact that the Holy Scripture does not generally tell us who to call what.
It actually generally does as regards names and titles of significant people, with even their names signifying something and often their relationships. And its careful attribution and use of honorific titles (such as Abraham the friend of God, Moses the man of God, Jesus the Son of God, King of kings and Lord of lords, etc.), is to be observed, lest we think of men above that which is written, which admonishment Catholicism, with its 900+ titles etc. given to Mary, has not observed, nor with its multitude of clerical titles and ostentatious clothing.
Per usual, the emphasis is on Mary as the provider, regardless of the fact that all Mary has came by the Son of God.
And therein is the difference, as RCs do preach their church as "home," while those who have found their dwelling place to be Christ give this call to those who went astray:
Softly and tenderly Jesus is calling,
Calling for you and for me;
See, on the portals he's waiting and watching,
Watching for you and for me.
Come home, come home,
Ye who are weary, come home;
Earnestly, tenderly Jesus is calling,
Calling, O sinner, come home.
Why should we tarry when Jesus is pleading,
Pleading for you and for me?
Why should we linger and heed not his mercies,
Mercies for you and for me?
Time is now fleeting, the moments are passing,
Passing from you and from me;
Shadows are gathering, deathbeds are coming,
Coming for you and for me.
Oh! for the wonderful love he has promised
Promised for you and for me;
Though we have sinned, he has mercy and pardon,
Pardon for you and for me. - http://www.opc.org/hymn.html?hymn_num=694
Blessed be the name of the Lord.
OK. Prove that the Catholic canon is correct.
And besides, what's in the *Protestant* canon that is not in the Catholic canon?
The "figure" who has given birth (not "produced") Jesus Christ is His mother, no?
It is true that Mary is a personification of the Catholic Church, not true that the Church "produced" Christ, -- it is the other way around.
Because there is all the difference in the world from what God says is a blessing, as in having a child, and what the Catholic does in their "veneration" of Mary. There is no "veneration" of Mary in the bible. When He says "more blessed" He redirects that person from saying Mary is blessed to the fact that any Christian is more blessed for simple faith than Mary is for being the "Mother of God". This is like when He said John is the greatest of women born of men but any Christian is better than him.
It's all about Jesus and what we have in Him.
Ephesians 1:3-14 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience — among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved — and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
Why is it becoming surprising in this particular case? Mary is often called by her relation to Christ and to Eve: "His mother", or "the woman". Same in this case.
What's 'MARY' doing out in the wildeness?
Being a nun.
Yo! GC, here’s another one for your homepage.
To your earlier post: We are not saved by faith alone, so not every believer ends up in heaven. A saint is one who merited heaven; a canonized saint was recognized by the Holy Church to also be worthy of public veneration.
Thank you.
Poor Joseph, eh?
Mary getting married without any intention of being a wife to him after the angel commanded him to take Mary AS HIS WIFE.
That’s grounds for annulment in Catholicism.
What rank hypocrisy.
there were plenty to pray to in OT times
To what end? Sanctification was not available on the regular basis prior to the Church age.
Your conclusion simply does not follow
For people familiar with the concept of eternal life after death being like a treasure in heaven, which St. Paul longed for, it does. for someone with a tin ear for the Holy Scripture, -- I don't know.
Having life abundantly includes the afterlife,and the elect will judge angels, but the Holy Spirit also much details the "so great salvation" and abundant life for believers now
I never denied that; however, see above.
The prayers were given Him from God
They are "prayers of the saints" so they were prayed by the saints. You are ignoring plain scripture, and repeatedly.
this does not support praying to them
At a minimum, it shows that saints are cognizant of our affairs, and so it becomes reasonable to also pray for they witness to Christ.
Poor Joseph, eh?
Mary getting married without any intention of being a wife to him after the angel commanded him to take Mary AS HIS WIFE.
That’s grounds for annulment in Catholicism.
What rank hypocrisy.
Trying to talk to someone who does not understand the Scriptural definition of *saint* as Catholics don’t, isn’t going to be productive.
We know that in the NT *saint* = believer.
EVERY believer is a saint. They become one as soon as they put their trust in Christ and are born again.
Who cares; as long as we veer off in a different direction without solving the last thing...
You know that the RCC was not created at the time of Matthew's gospel; right?
Oh?I thought it was because they are irrelevant.
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